1 00:00:15,470 --> 00:00:11,860 these dreams like thinking weird things 2 00:00:17,660 --> 00:00:15,480 what sorts of things if you watch any 3 00:00:20,540 --> 00:00:17,670 popular TV shows or movies about the 4 00:00:23,599 --> 00:00:20,550 future of technology like this clip from 5 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:23,609 Netflix is Black Mirror you know the 6 00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:35,370 future and you know it's not very good 7 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:38,190 today's guest looks past the dystopia 8 00:00:43,310 --> 00:00:41,850 and sees something else where you're 9 00:00:45,830 --> 00:00:43,320 going and reaching towards with the 10 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:45,840 shared near-death experience in Raymond 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:49,110 moody in the higher-order geometry is 12 00:00:54,590 --> 00:00:51,210 there the possibility to actually 13 00:00:57,229 --> 00:00:54,600 imagine a higher ordered science that 14 00:01:00,110 --> 00:00:57,239 already exists and then where does that 15 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:00,120 take us there maybe I mean certainly one 16 00:01:03,529 --> 00:01:01,890 thing that you find when you study the 17 00:01:06,020 --> 00:01:03,539 history of science in the last hundred 18 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:06,030 50 years is that you know scientists 19 00:01:09,649 --> 00:01:07,710 have been you know pretty committed to 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:09,659 police policing the boundaries of their 21 00:01:15,380 --> 00:01:11,610 disciplines and one thing that they rule 22 00:01:17,210 --> 00:01:15,390 out is any kind of philosophical or even 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:17,220 spiritual reflection right you see that 24 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:18,570 in my first book that I mentioned 25 00:01:24,050 --> 00:01:21,210 earlier it looked pretty closely at the 26 00:01:26,899 --> 00:01:24,060 history of social sciences you know 27 00:01:28,789 --> 00:01:26,909 sociology psychology psychiatry sciences 28 00:01:30,530 --> 00:01:28,799 of mind and brain and one thing that the 29 00:01:33,050 --> 00:01:30,540 founders of the those disciplines really 30 00:01:37,010 --> 00:01:33,060 work hard at is you know squeezing out 31 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:37,020 any any mention of any kind of spiritual 32 00:01:40,399 --> 00:01:38,850 thing or any even philosophical 33 00:01:43,190 --> 00:01:40,409 questions and you know maybe you're 34 00:01:45,679 --> 00:01:43,200 right that in the future when scientists 35 00:01:48,469 --> 00:01:45,689 and social scientists are less allergic 36 00:01:50,810 --> 00:01:48,479 to or less afraid of thinking about 37 00:01:52,969 --> 00:01:50,820 these other orders of existence or 38 00:01:54,740 --> 00:01:52,979 thinking about spirit maybe that opens 39 00:01:57,139 --> 00:01:54,750 up a whole new way of thinking about and 40 00:01:59,569 --> 00:01:57,149 doing science so I really enjoyed having 41 00:02:01,580 --> 00:01:59,579 dr. Chris White on skeptic oh today and 42 00:02:03,789 --> 00:02:01,590 we talked about other topics like how 43 00:02:06,929 --> 00:02:03,799 much of this dark dark dystopic 44 00:02:09,389 --> 00:02:06,939 apocalyptic science stuff 45 00:02:12,630 --> 00:02:09,399 socially engineered is designed to make 46 00:02:15,030 --> 00:02:12,640 us feel even more isolated afraid alone 47 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:15,040 it certainly keeps us away from any kind 48 00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:18,910 of deeper examination of spirituality so 49 00:02:22,470 --> 00:02:20,110 it's a great chat from a very 50 00:02:25,770 --> 00:02:22,480 distinguished and deep thinker stick 51 00:02:33,699 --> 00:02:25,780 around for my interview with Chris white 52 00:02:37,069 --> 00:02:33,709 [Music] 53 00:02:39,559 --> 00:02:37,079 today we welcome dr. Christopher G white 54 00:02:42,979 --> 00:02:39,569 - skeptic oh he's here to talk about his 55 00:02:46,610 --> 00:02:42,989 new book other worlds spirituality and 56 00:02:48,770 --> 00:02:46,620 the search for invisible dimensions now 57 00:02:51,229 --> 00:02:48,780 I don't usually read a lot of book 58 00:02:53,990 --> 00:02:51,239 blurbs on this show but this is a really 59 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:54,000 good one so let me read this in because 60 00:02:58,429 --> 00:02:55,290 it'll give you an idea where he's coming 61 00:03:01,099 --> 00:02:58,439 from for a long time people have argued 62 00:03:04,550 --> 00:03:01,109 that the rise of science has caused the 63 00:03:06,729 --> 00:03:04,560 decline of religion other worlds this 64 00:03:09,470 --> 00:03:06,739 book presents a different perspective 65 00:03:13,149 --> 00:03:09,480 showing that modern Europeans and 66 00:03:16,030 --> 00:03:13,159 Americans often use scientific ideas in 67 00:03:19,220 --> 00:03:16,040 imaginative ways to develop new 68 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:19,230 enchanted views of nature the book 69 00:03:24,890 --> 00:03:21,930 examines the history and imaginative 70 00:03:27,439 --> 00:03:24,900 power of one scientific idea in 71 00:03:29,990 --> 00:03:27,449 particular an idea that has been crucial 72 00:03:32,449 --> 00:03:30,000 to modern physics as well as modern 73 00:03:36,460 --> 00:03:32,459 science fiction and that is the idea 74 00:03:39,559 --> 00:03:36,470 that the universe has a higher invisible 75 00:03:42,289 --> 00:03:39,569 dimension very very nice I should also 76 00:03:44,509 --> 00:03:42,299 mention real quickly that Chris I'm 77 00:03:46,999 --> 00:03:44,519 gonna call him Chris here has a PhD from 78 00:03:48,890 --> 00:03:47,009 Harvard and his professor and chair of 79 00:03:51,110 --> 00:03:48,900 religion at Vassar one of the top 80 00:03:53,179 --> 00:03:51,120 liberal arts colleges in the United 81 00:03:55,550 --> 00:03:53,189 States so in other words he's a really 82 00:03:57,289 --> 00:03:55,560 really smart guy but you would have 83 00:03:59,449 --> 00:03:57,299 figured that out anyway as we go along 84 00:04:01,670 --> 00:03:59,459 but it's great to have you here Chris 85 00:04:03,229 --> 00:04:01,680 thanks for joining me thanks for that 86 00:04:05,449 --> 00:04:03,239 introduction Alex you really you really 87 00:04:07,309 --> 00:04:05,459 you know raising expectations for your 88 00:04:08,809 --> 00:04:07,319 listening audience here so I don't know 89 00:04:12,050 --> 00:04:08,819 hopefully I won't disappoint well let's 90 00:04:14,330 --> 00:04:12,060 see how it goes okay okay I don't think 91 00:04:17,180 --> 00:04:14,340 you will you you have a terrific book 92 00:04:20,300 --> 00:04:17,190 here and I really like you yeah well 93 00:04:22,339 --> 00:04:20,310 written you're covering a topic that you 94 00:04:26,870 --> 00:04:22,349 know a lot of people probably expect 95 00:04:28,670 --> 00:04:26,880 either find very superficial or Laden 96 00:04:29,749 --> 00:04:28,680 down with a lot of academic stuff and 97 00:04:31,580 --> 00:04:29,759 you don't fall in either one of those 98 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:31,590 it's really light and it carries a 99 00:04:36,740 --> 00:04:34,110 lightness about spirituality with it 100 00:04:39,050 --> 00:04:36,750 that is great good yeah no I'm glad you 101 00:04:40,459 --> 00:04:39,060 like that I am I definitely worked hard 102 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:40,469 on it you know there's there's a lot of 103 00:04:43,219 --> 00:04:42,330 pieces to put in together a book you 104 00:04:45,390 --> 00:04:43,229 know you got to get all the information 105 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:45,400 and do the research and then 106 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:47,650 write it up and try to write it up in an 107 00:04:51,659 --> 00:04:49,510 interesting way and like you say you 108 00:04:53,580 --> 00:04:51,669 know I tried to make it a book for 109 00:04:54,870 --> 00:04:53,590 students and for scholars and for 110 00:04:56,610 --> 00:04:54,880 everyone else who wants to read about 111 00:04:58,400 --> 00:04:56,620 sort of higher dimensions and how 112 00:05:01,379 --> 00:04:58,410 they're changing how we think about 113 00:05:03,060 --> 00:05:01,389 spirituality so yeah it was it was it 114 00:05:05,129 --> 00:05:03,070 took a few years to do it but but I had 115 00:05:06,810 --> 00:05:05,139 fun with it for sure well I want to let 116 00:05:08,250 --> 00:05:06,820 people know that we're gonna talk about 117 00:05:10,590 --> 00:05:08,260 the book and I really want people to 118 00:05:12,719 --> 00:05:10,600 check out the book listeners of this 119 00:05:15,659 --> 00:05:12,729 show I think will really really like it 120 00:05:18,029 --> 00:05:15,669 but you've also opened yourself up and 121 00:05:20,490 --> 00:05:18,039 are willing to kind of have a more free 122 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:20,500 ranging discussion because that's really 123 00:05:25,590 --> 00:05:22,030 what skeptical is about is kind of 124 00:05:27,450 --> 00:05:25,600 trying to figure out how you're a really 125 00:05:30,570 --> 00:05:27,460 smart guy like you how your work fits 126 00:05:32,580 --> 00:05:30,580 into these larger questions of who are 127 00:05:34,740 --> 00:05:32,590 we and why are we here and and how it 128 00:05:37,590 --> 00:05:34,750 fits into the other topics we've 129 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:37,600 explored so that's really terrific that 130 00:05:40,830 --> 00:05:39,610 you're willing to do that but absolutely 131 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:40,840 yeah thanks 132 00:05:45,029 --> 00:05:43,030 here are a couple of leadoff questions 133 00:05:47,580 --> 00:05:45,039 you're a science and spirituality guy 134 00:05:51,390 --> 00:05:47,590 and I am too 135 00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:51,400 so here's question what's something 136 00:05:56,219 --> 00:05:55,060 you've learned from science that's 137 00:05:57,930 --> 00:05:56,229 changed your life 138 00:06:00,120 --> 00:05:57,940 yeah well that's actually a really good 139 00:06:02,190 --> 00:06:00,130 question to start this discussion with 140 00:06:04,110 --> 00:06:02,200 because in some ways you know it's sort 141 00:06:06,450 --> 00:06:04,120 of science and my reading of science and 142 00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:06,460 popular science that that started me 143 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:08,830 thinking about the book you know I'm you 144 00:06:12,930 --> 00:06:10,660 know in the book I talk a lot about you 145 00:06:15,060 --> 00:06:12,940 know the ways in which modern people who 146 00:06:17,610 --> 00:06:15,070 call themselves spiritual or spiritual 147 00:06:20,159 --> 00:06:17,620 but not religious are getting you know a 148 00:06:22,260 --> 00:06:20,169 renewed sense of awe and wonder by 149 00:06:23,730 --> 00:06:22,270 thinking about nature and I think I'm in 150 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:23,740 that category too you know I think that 151 00:06:29,430 --> 00:06:27,250 that's where I begin my reflections in 152 00:06:31,710 --> 00:06:29,440 the book and and I began my research in 153 00:06:33,540 --> 00:06:31,720 the book so you know I think I get that 154 00:06:35,580 --> 00:06:33,550 sense right when I watch a science 155 00:06:37,379 --> 00:06:35,590 documentary or when I read one of Brian 156 00:06:40,379 --> 00:06:37,389 Greene's books he's a physicist at 157 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:40,389 Columbia University and he wrote fabric 158 00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:41,889 of the cosmos and a couple other books 159 00:06:45,420 --> 00:06:43,750 about the multiverse and then he's also 160 00:06:49,260 --> 00:06:45,430 you know you can google him and watch 161 00:06:51,029 --> 00:06:49,270 his documentary on YouTube YouTube um so 162 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:51,039 but you know and he has that same sort 163 00:06:56,399 --> 00:06:53,130 of sense of sort of awe and wonder at 164 00:06:58,380 --> 00:06:56,409 how amazing and how big and how 165 00:06:59,200 --> 00:06:58,390 mysterious the the universe of the 166 00:07:01,150 --> 00:06:59,210 multiverse 167 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:01,160 and so I think that in some ways I kind 168 00:07:05,499 --> 00:07:02,570 of started with that and I think science 169 00:07:07,420 --> 00:07:05,509 has given me that and it's not unlike a 170 00:07:10,060 --> 00:07:07,430 number of people in my book like CS 171 00:07:11,590 --> 00:07:10,070 Lewis or Madeleine L'Engle or mint many 172 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:11,600 other people in any other chapters who 173 00:07:17,830 --> 00:07:14,690 kind of get rien santa dword view really 174 00:07:21,010 --> 00:07:17,840 from what i'm calling like fantastic 175 00:07:23,050 --> 00:07:21,020 scientific concepts so in some ways the 176 00:07:26,350 --> 00:07:23,060 book is biographical or autobiographical 177 00:07:29,620 --> 00:07:26,360 in that way you know that's awesome was 178 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:29,630 there any specific scientific discovery 179 00:07:32,860 --> 00:07:31,130 because I'll just share with you like 180 00:07:34,510 --> 00:07:32,870 yeah I've been doing this show for a 181 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:34,520 while and I had all these kind of 182 00:07:38,980 --> 00:07:36,770 questions and the same kind of thing you 183 00:07:41,499 --> 00:07:38,990 don't wonder a science thing but I ran 184 00:07:43,629 --> 00:07:41,509 across the near-death experience science 185 00:07:45,790 --> 00:07:43,639 research peer-reviewed published stuff 186 00:07:48,370 --> 00:07:45,800 and it really changed me because I had 187 00:07:50,650 --> 00:07:48,380 lingering doubts about the survival of 188 00:07:53,499 --> 00:07:50,660 consciousness and when I was really able 189 00:07:55,029 --> 00:07:53,509 to finally pin that down for myself I'm 190 00:07:57,430 --> 00:07:55,039 not saying this applies to anyone else 191 00:07:59,650 --> 00:07:57,440 but it really kind of turned something 192 00:08:01,870 --> 00:07:59,660 in me I was like wow there are science 193 00:08:04,810 --> 00:08:01,880 the best way that I can understand it 194 00:08:08,500 --> 00:08:04,820 has changed fundamentally what I can 195 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:08,510 accept about consciousness and death do 196 00:08:12,430 --> 00:08:10,310 you have any kind of similar parallel 197 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:12,440 thing of something in science a 198 00:08:18,370 --> 00:08:14,630 scientific discovery that really led you 199 00:08:20,050 --> 00:08:18,380 to just a new belief system yeah well I 200 00:08:21,969 --> 00:08:20,060 think that you know when I started the 201 00:08:24,370 --> 00:08:21,979 project I was raised in the Baha'i faith 202 00:08:26,230 --> 00:08:24,380 so I'm a Baha'i and like one of the 203 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:26,240 teachings in the Baha'i religion or the 204 00:08:29,770 --> 00:08:27,530 Baha'i faith is that there are that 205 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:29,780 there are many worlds you know which is 206 00:08:34,420 --> 00:08:31,190 the title of the book right that there 207 00:08:38,409 --> 00:08:34,430 are many worlds that the divine essence 208 00:08:40,990 --> 00:08:38,419 or the transcendent you know has created 209 00:08:42,670 --> 00:08:41,000 or contains you know many worlds and so 210 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:42,680 I think I had that sensibility going 211 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:44,570 into it and then actually it's funny you 212 00:08:47,650 --> 00:08:45,890 mentioned the near-death experiences I 213 00:08:49,780 --> 00:08:47,660 did you know about ten years ago I got 214 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:49,790 interested in reading Raymond Moody and 215 00:08:54,310 --> 00:08:51,890 kind of near-death experiences and 216 00:08:56,680 --> 00:08:54,320 out-of-body experiences and I got really 217 00:08:58,150 --> 00:08:56,690 interested in thinking about that you 218 00:09:00,819 --> 00:08:58,160 know and kind of been kind of inspired 219 00:09:02,620 --> 00:09:00,829 by that and that kind of changed my 220 00:09:04,990 --> 00:09:02,630 thinking I guess a little bit like you 221 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:05,000 I'm you know thinking about many layers 222 00:09:08,230 --> 00:09:07,130 and many worlds and and then I guess the 223 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:08,240 third piece was when I was doing 224 00:09:11,710 --> 00:09:09,770 research for my first book which is 225 00:09:12,910 --> 00:09:11,720 called unsettled Minds which is more a 226 00:09:15,069 --> 00:09:12,920 history of 227 00:09:17,919 --> 00:09:15,079 psychology and sciences of mind and 228 00:09:20,859 --> 00:09:17,929 brain and how they influence American 229 00:09:22,059 --> 00:09:20,869 thinking about spirituality and religion 230 00:09:24,970 --> 00:09:22,069 but when I was when I was doing that 231 00:09:28,479 --> 00:09:24,980 that project I came across an awful lot 232 00:09:30,429 --> 00:09:28,489 of people you know who were interested 233 00:09:32,919 --> 00:09:30,439 in science and religion and physics or 234 00:09:35,319 --> 00:09:32,929 science religion and cosmology and these 235 00:09:36,939 --> 00:09:35,329 were people who were talking more about 236 00:09:39,429 --> 00:09:36,949 higher dimensions right and using that 237 00:09:42,309 --> 00:09:39,439 that kind of fantastic scientific term 238 00:09:44,259 --> 00:09:42,319 higher dimensions parallel universes and 239 00:09:46,090 --> 00:09:44,269 so that that was maybe the third thing 240 00:09:46,929 --> 00:09:46,100 that you know got me excited like well 241 00:09:48,609 --> 00:09:46,939 wait a minute you know what's the 242 00:09:49,569 --> 00:09:48,619 relationship between all these different 243 00:09:52,539 --> 00:09:49,579 things what's the relationship between 244 00:09:54,429 --> 00:09:52,549 you know an idea a spiritual idea that 245 00:09:56,349 --> 00:09:54,439 there might be you know an afterlife or 246 00:09:58,059 --> 00:09:56,359 other worlds on the one hand and also 247 00:09:59,559 --> 00:09:58,069 you know the sort of near-death 248 00:10:01,749 --> 00:09:59,569 experiences on the other hand and then 249 00:10:03,309 --> 00:10:01,759 also you know more scientific ideas that 250 00:10:05,409 --> 00:10:03,319 there might be invisible spaces or 251 00:10:07,449 --> 00:10:05,419 layers to reality and you know what's 252 00:10:09,099 --> 00:10:07,459 the story you know and how people put 253 00:10:11,530 --> 00:10:09,109 those different categories together and 254 00:10:13,449 --> 00:10:11,540 that that's really the book you know and 255 00:10:14,619 --> 00:10:13,459 I have a number of those different kinds 256 00:10:16,569 --> 00:10:14,629 of people in the book you know I have 257 00:10:18,489 --> 00:10:16,579 spiritual or religious people in the 258 00:10:20,619 --> 00:10:18,499 book who who have different ideas about 259 00:10:23,169 --> 00:10:20,629 an afterlife and then I have people who 260 00:10:25,929 --> 00:10:23,179 you know have afterlife experiences and 261 00:10:27,939 --> 00:10:25,939 have a more empirical kind of view and 262 00:10:29,169 --> 00:10:27,949 want to want to study these kinds of 263 00:10:31,150 --> 00:10:29,179 things scientifically and then I also 264 00:10:33,309 --> 00:10:31,160 have skeptics in the book right as you 265 00:10:34,780 --> 00:10:33,319 know I have scientists and and others in 266 00:10:36,729 --> 00:10:34,790 there who sort of push back on all that 267 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:36,739 and say you know that's not really what 268 00:10:42,189 --> 00:10:38,569 we're talking about when we talk about 269 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:42,199 higher dimensional spaces on but that 270 00:10:45,970 --> 00:10:43,910 conversation goes round and around and 271 00:10:48,669 --> 00:10:45,980 in the book I try to I try to turn it 272 00:10:51,729 --> 00:10:48,679 into a story great have you had any 273 00:10:53,739 --> 00:10:51,739 spiritual experiences that have really 274 00:10:56,109 --> 00:10:53,749 changed your life in a significant way 275 00:10:57,549 --> 00:10:56,119 yeah that's a good question I get that 276 00:11:00,369 --> 00:10:57,559 question you know I get that question 277 00:11:01,689 --> 00:11:00,379 when I'm doing a podcast or doing maybe 278 00:11:04,629 --> 00:11:01,699 a radio show or an interview or 279 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:04,639 something you know and it's always it's 280 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:07,850 always a letdown because because I you 281 00:11:11,529 --> 00:11:09,410 know I don't have you know I haven't I 282 00:11:13,449 --> 00:11:11,539 haven't had a UFO experience or I have I 283 00:11:15,729 --> 00:11:13,459 haven't heard a voice or seen a light 284 00:11:17,199 --> 00:11:15,739 I'm you know I know I know people that 285 00:11:18,460 --> 00:11:17,209 have had these experiences and in fact 286 00:11:20,229 --> 00:11:18,470 I've talked to them right because 287 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:20,239 because I study these kinds of 288 00:11:24,220 --> 00:11:22,610 experiences and advice or I teach about 289 00:11:26,770 --> 00:11:24,230 these experiences too and like ways of 290 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:26,780 interpreting them but I mean aside from 291 00:11:30,910 --> 00:11:28,570 you know having my own sort of 292 00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:30,920 meditation and prayer life you know 293 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:32,510 which is sort of more of a kind of a 294 00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:36,110 constant practice in my life aside from 295 00:11:39,010 --> 00:11:37,790 that no there I don't really you know 296 00:11:41,650 --> 00:11:39,020 I've never had an out-of-body experience 297 00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:41,660 or these kinds of you know dramatic 298 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:44,630 experiences or uncanny experiences that 299 00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:46,250 people that many people have had and I 300 00:11:50,260 --> 00:11:48,860 think you've had as well but um so I'm 301 00:11:51,490 --> 00:11:50,270 always interested in hearing them and 302 00:11:52,810 --> 00:11:51,500 talking about them and I write about 303 00:11:55,180 --> 00:11:52,820 them quite a bit in my book but I've 304 00:11:57,250 --> 00:11:55,190 I've never had one that's interesting 305 00:12:00,940 --> 00:11:57,260 because I know I really haven't had any 306 00:12:03,460 --> 00:12:00,950 super profound spiritual experiences but 307 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:03,470 I found that when I really you know dig 308 00:12:08,170 --> 00:12:05,330 into it and probe it with people 309 00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:08,180 especially people like you and if I can 310 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:10,870 say like me in terms of I have a steady 311 00:12:16,660 --> 00:12:13,610 spiritual practice a meditation practice 312 00:12:20,140 --> 00:12:16,670 a yoga practice because it works for me 313 00:12:23,050 --> 00:12:20,150 on so many levels but if I really dig 314 00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:23,060 into that and if I get past the need to 315 00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:25,550 have all the fireworks yeah I have had 316 00:12:31,330 --> 00:12:28,040 spiritual experiences even if there's 317 00:12:34,180 --> 00:12:31,340 small ones that have kind of moved me on 318 00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:34,190 the course and does that relate to you 319 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:35,570 because I think most people that are 320 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:38,810 consider themselves spiritual they have 321 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:42,170 to beginning some yeah crumbs that 322 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:43,970 they're following along the path oh 323 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:45,890 absolutely I mean you know when I 324 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:49,490 remember being 14 or 15 and not really 325 00:12:52,750 --> 00:12:51,290 believing in God but but then sort of 326 00:12:54,190 --> 00:12:52,760 taking up the issue of prayer and just 327 00:12:56,770 --> 00:12:54,200 kind of being like open minded and 328 00:12:57,970 --> 00:12:56,780 taking an experimental view and sort of 329 00:12:59,560 --> 00:12:57,980 saying you know well I'm gonna do this 330 00:13:00,730 --> 00:12:59,570 practice and I'm just gonna see what 331 00:13:03,130 --> 00:13:00,740 happens I don't have to believe anything 332 00:13:04,750 --> 00:13:03,140 but I'm going to do it and I'm gonna and 333 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:04,760 I'm gonna see and then as you say come 334 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:06,890 along the way you do feel kind of a 335 00:13:11,830 --> 00:13:09,650 sense of change you know coming over you 336 00:13:13,630 --> 00:13:11,840 in a sense of being grounded in a 337 00:13:15,610 --> 00:13:13,640 certain way and a feeling that this is 338 00:13:18,180 --> 00:13:15,620 this is the right path you know and 339 00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:18,190 maybe it may be those types of practices 340 00:13:22,540 --> 00:13:21,110 turn on parts of the self that we don't 341 00:13:25,180 --> 00:13:22,550 think about sometimes right maybe they 342 00:13:27,340 --> 00:13:25,190 turn on parts of the self that you know 343 00:13:30,460 --> 00:13:27,350 we use words like intuition to talk 344 00:13:33,010 --> 00:13:30,470 about right or you know intuition or 345 00:13:34,540 --> 00:13:33,020 feeling or religious emotions on you 346 00:13:37,060 --> 00:13:34,550 know certainly you know I've had those 347 00:13:40,510 --> 00:13:37,070 types of kind of confirming experiences 348 00:13:41,830 --> 00:13:40,520 with those with those practices for sure 349 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:41,840 and then and then you know when you ask 350 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:43,250 the question another thing I think of 351 00:13:47,950 --> 00:13:45,850 about sort of spiritual experiences is 352 00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:47,960 you know I think this gets back to awe 353 00:13:54,190 --> 00:13:51,110 and wonder and maybe nature but also an 354 00:13:56,140 --> 00:13:54,200 element of of the beyond of the beyond 355 00:13:58,060 --> 00:13:56,150 nature is is things like you know the 356 00:13:59,950 --> 00:13:58,070 birth of my children you know you you 357 00:14:02,590 --> 00:13:59,960 have these kind of fantastic moments 358 00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:02,600 that happen to you in your life and they 359 00:14:09,460 --> 00:14:05,600 do kind of strike you as as revelatory 360 00:14:11,230 --> 00:14:09,470 right in a certain way you know and we 361 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:11,240 all know the science behind childbirth 362 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:12,890 right we can we could take it completely 363 00:14:17,530 --> 00:14:15,170 domestic and take a completely 364 00:14:19,570 --> 00:14:17,540 scientific approach to it but I actually 365 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:19,580 think that that that kind of approach it 366 00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:21,710 doesn't really I'm not sure that it 367 00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:24,320 really does take away from the the kind 368 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:26,300 of fantastic and awesome nature of some 369 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:27,530 of these things just like if we know the 370 00:14:30,220 --> 00:14:29,090 science and the geology of the Grand 371 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:30,230 Canyon or these other kinds of 372 00:14:33,670 --> 00:14:31,910 experiences it's a bit different when 373 00:14:35,380 --> 00:14:33,680 you go there and you experience it right 374 00:14:38,860 --> 00:14:35,390 so I mean there definitely is something 375 00:14:40,630 --> 00:14:38,870 an experience that that has that's made 376 00:14:42,250 --> 00:14:40,640 it possible for me to feel a sense of 377 00:14:44,590 --> 00:14:42,260 transformation and and I know for people 378 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:44,600 who have more dramatic experiences right 379 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:46,610 like maybe near-death experiences right 380 00:14:50,670 --> 00:14:49,010 who come out of those experiences and 381 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:50,680 you know they feel completely trance 382 00:14:56,980 --> 00:14:53,450 transformed it in various ways right no 383 00:14:58,900 --> 00:14:56,990 excellent so let's return then and talk 384 00:15:01,060 --> 00:14:58,910 a little bit about the book one of the 385 00:15:02,890 --> 00:15:01,070 points that you make and I just read it 386 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:02,900 in the blurb there that I'd love for you 387 00:15:07,540 --> 00:15:05,570 to talk about because I think we really 388 00:15:10,570 --> 00:15:07,550 need to hone in on it and that is this 389 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:10,580 idea of invisible dimensions multiple 390 00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:12,890 dimensions and you really pull that 391 00:15:17,890 --> 00:15:15,260 apart and you have this and an interplay 392 00:15:20,740 --> 00:15:17,900 between what science is discovering and 393 00:15:23,260 --> 00:15:20,750 what spirituality is discovering if we 394 00:15:26,140 --> 00:15:23,270 can apply that word to spirituality yeah 395 00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:26,150 you want to talk about that so yeah sure 396 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:29,600 I mean you know the the book begins you 397 00:15:34,510 --> 00:15:32,810 know a hundred years ago or so with with 398 00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:34,520 people who I think consider themselves 399 00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:37,310 scientific but then who you know start 400 00:15:41,170 --> 00:15:39,680 to through the mathematics and through 401 00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:41,180 their physics they start to think about 402 00:15:46,450 --> 00:15:42,700 the possibility that there are invisible 403 00:15:48,180 --> 00:15:46,460 spaces or dimensions to reality and some 404 00:15:51,820 --> 00:15:48,190 of them are interested in that as 405 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:51,830 scientists right higher dimensions as 406 00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:53,690 even a physical space and then and then 407 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:54,000 other 408 00:15:59,210 --> 00:15:57,210 get interested in these spaces as you 409 00:16:00,740 --> 00:15:59,220 know possibly spiritual spaces or spaces 410 00:16:03,290 --> 00:16:00,750 where there might be spirits or ghosts 411 00:16:05,630 --> 00:16:03,300 and so on and you can have scientists 412 00:16:08,420 --> 00:16:05,640 who themselves or pursue that or pursue 413 00:16:13,010 --> 00:16:08,430 those ideas you know is it possible to 414 00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:13,020 to have a scientific perspective on the 415 00:16:17,690 --> 00:16:15,680 afterlife is it possible to study 416 00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:17,700 spirituality scientifically or 417 00:16:20,510 --> 00:16:18,720 empirically right these are all 418 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:20,520 questions that some of these folks 419 00:16:24,770 --> 00:16:22,770 raised when they started to think about 420 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:24,780 higher dimensions and maybe I can just 421 00:16:30,020 --> 00:16:26,730 say a quick word about what dimensions 422 00:16:32,060 --> 00:16:30,030 are just to sort of make that clear in 423 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:32,070 our conversation but I think there's a 424 00:16:35,090 --> 00:16:33,330 number of different ways of talking 425 00:16:37,340 --> 00:16:35,100 about other dimensions or other 426 00:16:39,020 --> 00:16:37,350 universes or parallel worlds on and so 427 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:39,030 on and I try to take up some of those in 428 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:42,450 the book the main thing I'm gay gin the 429 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:44,010 book though is just this idea that there 430 00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:45,930 might be a higher a higher spatial 431 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:48,360 dimension so you know in our world we 432 00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:50,250 have we have three spatial dimensions 433 00:16:55,910 --> 00:16:53,910 you know on basically you know if you 434 00:16:57,380 --> 00:16:55,920 can imagine drawing a line on a piece of 435 00:16:59,630 --> 00:16:57,390 paper that's a one-dimensional object 436 00:17:02,090 --> 00:16:59,640 just a straight line you know that has 437 00:17:03,170 --> 00:17:02,100 one dimension that we call length you 438 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:03,180 know and then if you were to take that 439 00:17:06,679 --> 00:17:05,010 line on that flat piece of paper and 440 00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:06,689 take all the points in that line and 441 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:08,640 stretch them in a in a new direction 442 00:17:13,670 --> 00:17:10,970 that's perpendicular to the 443 00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:13,680 perpendicular to the line you would have 444 00:17:18,170 --> 00:17:16,230 a two-dimensional object an object a 445 00:17:19,550 --> 00:17:18,180 flat square right that would have length 446 00:17:21,890 --> 00:17:19,560 and width those would be its two 447 00:17:23,569 --> 00:17:21,900 dimensions or directions and then if you 448 00:17:25,100 --> 00:17:23,579 do the same if you do the same thing if 449 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:25,110 you take that flat Square and you take 450 00:17:28,580 --> 00:17:27,089 every point in the square and you 451 00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:28,590 stretch it in a new direction that's 452 00:17:32,540 --> 00:17:29,790 perpendicular to the other two 453 00:17:35,210 --> 00:17:32,550 directions you would stretch that flat 454 00:17:36,530 --> 00:17:35,220 square into a three-dimensional cube so 455 00:17:39,220 --> 00:17:36,540 that cube has three spatial dimensions 456 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:39,230 all right it has length width and height 457 00:17:44,030 --> 00:17:41,850 now this is where it gets tricky right 458 00:17:45,860 --> 00:17:44,040 so you know every everything in our 459 00:17:47,390 --> 00:17:45,870 world apparently has three spatial 460 00:17:50,930 --> 00:17:47,400 dimensions that's the world that we seem 461 00:17:52,340 --> 00:17:50,940 to live in but geometers and 462 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:52,350 mathematicians and physicists in the 463 00:17:56,270 --> 00:17:54,210 19th century started to incorporate a 464 00:17:58,700 --> 00:17:56,280 fourth spatial dimension into their 465 00:18:00,680 --> 00:17:58,710 equations because they it seemed to 466 00:18:02,330 --> 00:18:00,690 simplify the laws of nature and it 467 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:02,340 allowed them to do things that were 468 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:04,170 interesting to them mathematically so 469 00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:06,330 you know that this would be this would 470 00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:07,120 be 471 00:18:12,270 --> 00:18:09,190 if you were to think about what a fourth 472 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:12,280 space and again this fourth spatial 473 00:18:15,810 --> 00:18:13,690 dimension is not a dimension that we can 474 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:15,820 perceive although a number of people in 475 00:18:19,530 --> 00:18:17,290 my book say that there are practices 476 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:19,540 that you can do to actually see into a 477 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:22,090 fourth dimension but this would involve 478 00:18:26,130 --> 00:18:23,890 you know this dimension would involve 479 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:26,140 taking that three dimensional cube like 480 00:18:31,230 --> 00:18:28,450 that rubik's cube and taking all the 481 00:18:32,550 --> 00:18:31,240 points in the queue and all the points 482 00:18:35,220 --> 00:18:32,560 on the surfaces of that cube and 483 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:35,230 stretching it in a forth direction or 484 00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:37,810 dimension right and that direction would 485 00:18:42,420 --> 00:18:39,280 have to be perpendicular to the other 486 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:42,430 three and if you know your listeners sit 487 00:18:45,780 --> 00:18:43,690 there and try to imagine what that 488 00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:45,790 direction would be it's a pretty hard 489 00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:48,160 thing to do um it's a pretty hard thing 490 00:18:51,210 --> 00:18:49,540 to imagine and that's because we don't 491 00:18:53,690 --> 00:18:51,220 we apparently don't have that spatial 492 00:18:55,740 --> 00:18:53,700 dimension but nevertheless you know 493 00:18:58,110 --> 00:18:55,750 physicists cosmologists and 494 00:18:59,550 --> 00:18:58,120 mathematicians they do use this idea of 495 00:19:01,380 --> 00:18:59,560 there being a fourth dimensional space 496 00:19:03,390 --> 00:19:01,390 or a fifth dimensional space to reality 497 00:19:05,550 --> 00:19:03,400 you know maybe this is a space that we 498 00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:05,560 can't perceive because the limitations 499 00:19:09,390 --> 00:19:07,840 of our consciousness and so that that's 500 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:09,400 sort of the beginning of the book and 501 00:19:14,460 --> 00:19:12,010 then these ideas get taken up by lots of 502 00:19:16,350 --> 00:19:14,470 different kinds of people there are 503 00:19:19,020 --> 00:19:16,360 other ways of that we might think about 504 00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:19,030 dimensions like today you know we have 505 00:19:23,850 --> 00:19:21,430 multiverse theory right this is a theory 506 00:19:25,620 --> 00:19:23,860 that not so much a theory of other 507 00:19:27,660 --> 00:19:25,630 dimensions as a theory of parallel 508 00:19:32,610 --> 00:19:27,670 universes 509 00:19:35,010 --> 00:19:32,620 that exist outside of our our own 510 00:19:37,710 --> 00:19:35,020 there's other kinds of theories that 511 00:19:39,330 --> 00:19:37,720 have other layers or worlds to them 512 00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:39,340 right and I'm sure your your listeners 513 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:41,230 are familiar with these other kinds of 514 00:19:45,030 --> 00:19:43,330 theories but string theory which is a 515 00:19:46,860 --> 00:19:45,040 modern theory and and among 516 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:46,870 mathematicians and physicists that it 517 00:19:51,060 --> 00:19:48,970 tries to account for it tries to come up 518 00:19:53,180 --> 00:19:51,070 with one set of equations that can 519 00:19:56,010 --> 00:19:53,190 accommodate all of the all of nature's 520 00:19:58,920 --> 00:19:56,020 all of nature's forces basically and 521 00:20:00,450 --> 00:19:58,930 string theory incorporates many extra 522 00:20:02,970 --> 00:20:00,460 spatial dimensions there's also 523 00:20:04,770 --> 00:20:02,980 something called brain theory Lisa 524 00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:04,780 Randall at Harvard a physicist talks 525 00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:06,220 about brain theory and number of others 526 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:07,510 talk about brain theory this is the idea 527 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:10,930 that there are membranes or brains in 528 00:20:16,770 --> 00:20:13,450 the cosmos right and our visible 529 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:16,780 universe is just one is just on one of 530 00:20:21,090 --> 00:20:19,810 those membranes spread out on one of 531 00:20:22,409 --> 00:20:21,100 those membranes or one of those 532 00:20:26,010 --> 00:20:22,419 players in reality and that there's 533 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:26,020 other layers in reality or other brains 534 00:20:30,270 --> 00:20:28,210 or membranes to reality that we can't 535 00:20:31,529 --> 00:20:30,280 perceive so there's a lot of different 536 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:31,539 reasons that mathematicians and 537 00:20:36,210 --> 00:20:33,610 physicists have posited the existence of 538 00:20:38,039 --> 00:20:36,220 these other dimensional spaces parallel 539 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:38,049 worlds and there's even other theories 540 00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:39,730 that I haven't mentioned like like the 541 00:20:43,620 --> 00:20:40,960 many-worlds interpretation of quantum 542 00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:43,630 mechanics na which says that there that 543 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:45,280 our universe is constantly branching 544 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:48,010 into other additional constantly 545 00:20:52,919 --> 00:20:50,410 creating new additional parallel worlds 546 00:20:55,049 --> 00:20:52,929 so there's mathematical and scientific 547 00:20:57,090 --> 00:20:55,059 reasons that these theorists are coming 548 00:20:59,039 --> 00:20:57,100 up with these ideas I should say there's 549 00:21:01,200 --> 00:20:59,049 no proof you know there's no there's no 550 00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:01,210 mathematical or scientific proof that 551 00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:03,280 these higher dimensions exist know that 552 00:21:06,990 --> 00:21:05,110 these parallel worlds exist but many 553 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:07,000 physicists and mathematicians are 554 00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:09,490 actively pursuing the mathematics of 555 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:12,220 these of these higher dimensional worlds 556 00:21:15,930 --> 00:21:13,990 and they're also trying to figure out 557 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:15,940 ways to empirically confirm whether or 558 00:21:22,169 --> 00:21:18,370 not they exist so that's a big that's a 559 00:21:23,789 --> 00:21:22,179 big you know that's a big sort of 560 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:23,799 excursus into higher dimensions we can 561 00:21:26,909 --> 00:21:25,210 talk more of that about that if you want 562 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:26,919 but so there's a lot of scientists who 563 00:21:30,330 --> 00:21:28,750 talk about them but then a lot of people 564 00:21:32,039 --> 00:21:30,340 in pop culture who use them too and that 565 00:21:34,049 --> 00:21:32,049 that of course is in the book all of the 566 00:21:36,570 --> 00:21:34,059 sci-fi writers all the comic book 567 00:21:38,730 --> 00:21:36,580 artists right all the people who create 568 00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:38,740 TV shows like The Twilight Zone and the 569 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:40,480 outer limits and films like interstellar 570 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:43,570 and right and so many people use these 571 00:21:47,789 --> 00:21:45,130 ideas there being other dimensional 572 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:47,799 realities and then Chris of course what 573 00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:50,850 you do is you link that to a lot of 574 00:21:55,409 --> 00:21:53,110 spiritual people if we can use that 575 00:21:58,289 --> 00:21:55,419 category mystic yeah thinkers or 576 00:22:00,450 --> 00:21:58,299 experiencers who have kind of come at it 577 00:22:03,659 --> 00:22:00,460 from a different way and there's this 578 00:22:05,070 --> 00:22:03,669 interplay of cross-fertilization and 579 00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:05,080 forming each other kind of thing right 580 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:06,580 that's the other part of this and then 581 00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:08,530 tell us how you researched obviously 582 00:22:12,299 --> 00:22:10,510 you're smart enough to go read the 583 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:12,309 science and understand that but you also 584 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:15,010 researched the writings and 585 00:22:18,930 --> 00:22:16,450 understandings of the spiritual people 586 00:22:20,580 --> 00:22:18,940 as well right oh yeah yeah sure I mean 587 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:20,590 yeah I think I think you're right that 588 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:21,970 people came out of from two different 589 00:22:25,649 --> 00:22:23,770 directions you know the mathematicians 590 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:25,659 the scientists sort of were intrigued by 591 00:22:29,220 --> 00:22:27,610 you know where the mathematics was 592 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:29,230 leading them and then they asked 593 00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:31,570 questions like well you know if I'm if 594 00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:33,520 I'm using a fourth spatial or fifth 595 00:22:36,660 --> 00:22:34,990 spatial dimensions in the car 596 00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:36,670 types of my mathematics could there 597 00:22:42,150 --> 00:22:40,270 actually be a real fourth space or fifth 598 00:22:43,530 --> 00:22:42,160 space so some come at it that way and 599 00:22:45,390 --> 00:22:43,540 then as you say others come at it from a 600 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:45,400 spiritual side let's say someone has an 601 00:22:49,410 --> 00:22:46,690 out-of-body experience you and I talked 602 00:22:51,450 --> 00:22:49,420 about a number of people I think it's in 603 00:22:54,540 --> 00:22:51,460 Chapter six in the book where which is a 604 00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:54,550 chapter about people who have dreams 605 00:23:00,380 --> 00:22:57,130 that seem to predict the future right in 606 00:23:02,220 --> 00:23:00,390 that chapter I talk about a person who 607 00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:02,230 or a couple of people who have 608 00:23:05,730 --> 00:23:03,910 out-of-body experiences and near-death 609 00:23:08,070 --> 00:23:05,740 experiences and so these kinds of things 610 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:08,080 happen to them and then they go to the 611 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:09,970 science right so they this kind of 612 00:23:13,049 --> 00:23:11,530 strange stuff happens then they say well 613 00:23:15,090 --> 00:23:13,059 is there any possible way I could 614 00:23:17,549 --> 00:23:15,100 explain what happened to me you know and 615 00:23:18,750 --> 00:23:17,559 then they turn to they turn to popular 616 00:23:20,940 --> 00:23:18,760 science books that might be about 617 00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:20,950 Einstein science or quantum mechanics or 618 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:22,720 you know a lot of different things so 619 00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:23,890 you're right it goes kind of in both 620 00:23:30,570 --> 00:23:26,470 directions of the book so you know maybe 621 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:30,580 that's a good way to launch into one of 622 00:23:33,090 --> 00:23:32,050 the kind of points I want to talk about 623 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:33,100 in kind of a more freewheeling 624 00:23:37,260 --> 00:23:35,410 interactive discussion and I have three 625 00:23:39,150 --> 00:23:37,270 of them but the first one relates 626 00:23:41,370 --> 00:23:39,160 directly to what you're saying there and 627 00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:41,380 it relates to a quote I pulled out of 628 00:23:47,340 --> 00:23:44,800 the book and it was a chapter that you 629 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:47,350 were dealing with Raymond Moody who you 630 00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:49,570 mentioned earlier the real pioneer of 631 00:23:54,150 --> 00:23:52,630 near-death experience research and you 632 00:23:56,970 --> 00:23:54,160 know most recently I love that you 633 00:24:00,600 --> 00:23:56,980 pulled out that he's really gotten into 634 00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:00,610 shared death experiences that is not 635 00:24:05,580 --> 00:24:03,340 just the experiencer who has the cardiac 636 00:24:08,669 --> 00:24:05,590 arrest or whatever but people that are 637 00:24:11,310 --> 00:24:08,679 with them in the hospital bed who also 638 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:11,320 share that experience quite remarkable 639 00:24:17,669 --> 00:24:14,410 and quite evidential really and what you 640 00:24:20,730 --> 00:24:17,679 point out in in the book is that a lot 641 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:20,740 of these people are reporting gyah 642 00:24:27,780 --> 00:24:25,450 alternative geometrical understandings 643 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:27,790 or visions or experiences like 644 00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:30,250 alternative geometry so you want to talk 645 00:24:36,799 --> 00:24:32,710 about science I mean it's very science 646 00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:36,809 II so the way I'd frame up this topic is 647 00:24:43,110 --> 00:24:39,760 spiritually transformative experiences 648 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:43,120 there's an app for that so I guess my 649 00:24:48,409 --> 00:24:47,050 point is you know one way to take what 650 00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:48,419 you're doing is 651 00:24:53,779 --> 00:24:51,720 to suggest as some people do that our 652 00:24:56,659 --> 00:24:53,789 understanding of spiritually 653 00:24:59,560 --> 00:24:56,669 transformative experiences is going to 654 00:25:02,690 --> 00:24:59,570 change dramatically as we have a better 655 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:02,700 understanding of technology and science 656 00:25:09,259 --> 00:25:05,090 and what we you know you're kind of 657 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:09,269 playing nice with spirituality and 658 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:12,210 spiritual people but eventually all that 659 00:25:17,869 --> 00:25:15,330 will be sassoon by technological 660 00:25:20,509 --> 00:25:17,879 advancement so I just throw that on the 661 00:25:23,599 --> 00:25:20,519 table as a topic that we might kick 662 00:25:25,489 --> 00:25:23,609 around yeah yeah I yeah I think that's a 663 00:25:27,739 --> 00:25:25,499 I think that's a good observation I mean 664 00:25:28,999 --> 00:25:27,749 I think it kind of I think you can talk 665 00:25:30,999 --> 00:25:29,009 about that in a number of different ways 666 00:25:33,289 --> 00:25:31,009 I mean I think you could say you know 667 00:25:35,239 --> 00:25:33,299 technological advancement changes how 668 00:25:36,979 --> 00:25:35,249 people talk about spiritual experiences 669 00:25:38,599 --> 00:25:36,989 I think you could say technological 670 00:25:40,489 --> 00:25:38,609 advancement gives people new metaphors 671 00:25:42,979 --> 00:25:40,499 or ways of thinking about spiritual 672 00:25:45,019 --> 00:25:42,989 experiences you know I think you know 673 00:25:46,909 --> 00:25:45,029 I'm not sure I'm not sure what the 674 00:25:48,409 --> 00:25:46,919 direction of the causal arrow is right I 675 00:25:49,970 --> 00:25:48,419 mean you know because you could also 676 00:25:52,159 --> 00:25:49,980 argue that people's religious and 677 00:25:54,830 --> 00:25:52,169 spiritual questions leads them to 678 00:25:56,450 --> 00:25:54,840 different forms of scientific 679 00:25:58,039 --> 00:25:56,460 investigation and technological 680 00:25:59,930 --> 00:25:58,049 innovation so you know a number of 681 00:26:01,369 --> 00:25:59,940 people in history of science look at 682 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:01,379 look at the direction of that arrow 683 00:26:04,820 --> 00:26:02,970 going both ways and you know I mean 684 00:26:06,529 --> 00:26:04,830 there's no question that scientific 685 00:26:08,749 --> 00:26:06,539 innovation and technological innovation 686 00:26:10,820 --> 00:26:08,759 comes from a cultural context so it's 687 00:26:13,369 --> 00:26:10,830 not just that new science and technology 688 00:26:15,169 --> 00:26:13,379 comes out of a like a discovery vacuum 689 00:26:17,479 --> 00:26:15,179 and that and then it produces new new 690 00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:17,489 kinds of religious people there's a kind 691 00:26:20,479 --> 00:26:19,440 of a more dynamic quality to it but I 692 00:26:22,009 --> 00:26:20,489 definitely agree with what you're 693 00:26:23,539 --> 00:26:22,019 talking about you know in general that 694 00:26:25,820 --> 00:26:23,549 that's I think what I'm trying to do 695 00:26:28,129 --> 00:26:25,830 with the book is I'm saying given the 696 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:28,139 fact that in the West fewer and fewer 697 00:26:32,389 --> 00:26:30,090 people are going to church and reading 698 00:26:34,999 --> 00:26:32,399 the Bible or going to synagogue I'm 699 00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:35,009 participating with traditional religious 700 00:26:40,820 --> 00:26:37,289 congregations what are the ways that 701 00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,830 they're now thinking about what ghosts 702 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:42,960 are and what spirits are and where are 703 00:26:46,099 --> 00:26:44,369 they getting that there are new ways of 704 00:26:48,289 --> 00:26:46,109 talking about or experiencing these 705 00:26:50,149 --> 00:26:48,299 things and and that's where in the book 706 00:26:53,149 --> 00:26:50,159 you know things like higher dimensions 707 00:26:54,859 --> 00:26:53,159 you know moves in right to kind of see 708 00:26:56,779 --> 00:26:54,869 but this but that's one question but I 709 00:27:00,109 --> 00:26:56,789 guess what I'm getting at is the 710 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:00,119 underlying nature of spiritual 711 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:01,770 experiences do they 712 00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:04,250 exist or are they somehow being 713 00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:07,260 counterfeited in some artificial way or 714 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:10,320 do both or is both true is there both an 715 00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,690 underlying reality to spiritual 716 00:27:16,460 --> 00:27:14,880 experiences and we could talk about you 717 00:27:18,620 --> 00:27:16,470 know the implications for that in terms 718 00:27:20,380 --> 00:27:18,630 of higher spiritual beings and if you're 719 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:20,390 saying higher you're implying a 720 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:22,710 hierarchy and which case you're talking 721 00:27:25,730 --> 00:27:24,450 about god I guess at some level and then 722 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:25,740 so what does that mean 723 00:27:31,820 --> 00:27:29,130 or are we saying that intelligences be 724 00:27:33,740 --> 00:27:31,830 they on this planet or another planet if 725 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:33,750 you're willing to explain you know 726 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:35,490 expand into that or even if you're 727 00:27:40,430 --> 00:27:38,010 willing to go into spiritual dimensions 728 00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:40,440 and spiritual things are they somehow 729 00:27:46,220 --> 00:27:43,590 able to manipulate our experience in 730 00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:46,230 order to create the illusion of a 731 00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:49,440 transformative spiritual experiences so 732 00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:52,200 you know that I think rather than than 733 00:27:56,210 --> 00:27:54,240 just kind of focusing on you know 734 00:27:58,250 --> 00:27:56,220 oh wow people are now spiritual but not 735 00:28:00,740 --> 00:27:58,260 religious and how might they go forward 736 00:28:03,620 --> 00:28:00,750 what's the underlying nature of these 737 00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:03,630 spiritual experiences well that's a good 738 00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:05,910 question you know I I don't know if I 739 00:28:10,460 --> 00:28:08,310 can answer I would say that you know I 740 00:28:12,620 --> 00:28:10,470 think that there there is that there 741 00:28:14,510 --> 00:28:12,630 there there is reality to it you know I 742 00:28:16,100 --> 00:28:14,520 mean my personal view is that there is a 743 00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:16,110 kind of a spiritual reality and that 744 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:17,580 Pete when people talk about being 745 00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:19,050 inspired or having near-death 746 00:28:22,550 --> 00:28:20,640 experiences these kinds of things I 747 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:22,560 think that there's that there's truth to 748 00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:24,210 that you know so I wouldn't be I 749 00:28:28,580 --> 00:28:25,760 wouldn't be the person who would be 750 00:28:31,820 --> 00:28:28,590 reducing all those things to to brain 751 00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:31,830 chemistry right or to fMRI is where you 752 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:34,070 can look at the brain or whatever so I 753 00:28:38,990 --> 00:28:37,050 think that you know we are we are body 754 00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:39,000 mind and spirit so I think all of those 755 00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:40,710 things are smashed together in a package 756 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:43,200 and I think you certainly can look at 757 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:45,330 the scientific side of people's 758 00:28:48,830 --> 00:28:47,130 religious experiences now some 759 00:28:50,390 --> 00:28:48,840 scientists will do that and they will 760 00:28:52,460 --> 00:28:50,400 then they will then make a more 761 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:52,470 reductive move and they'll say that well 762 00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:55,170 the this is the cause of the spiritual 763 00:28:59,060 --> 00:28:56,700 experience the cause is actually in the 764 00:29:00,890 --> 00:28:59,070 body or the causes in the material thing 765 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:00,900 some scientists will make that reductive 766 00:29:05,270 --> 00:29:02,490 move I wouldn't make that reductive move 767 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:05,280 myself I think that all kinds of brain 768 00:29:09,110 --> 00:29:06,810 states and mine states and even 769 00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:09,120 spiritual states have analogs in the 770 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:10,980 physical body for sure but I wouldn't 771 00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:12,570 want to reduce them to the physical body 772 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:14,640 so I would be more on the side of people 773 00:29:17,930 --> 00:29:15,570 who would be 774 00:29:19,970 --> 00:29:17,940 open to the reality of real spiritual 775 00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:19,980 experiences you know and then you raise 776 00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:21,510 other questions in your comment to which 777 00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:22,980 which is you know where do they come 778 00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:24,750 from you know do they come from other 779 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:27,840 dimensions or extraterrestrials or gods 780 00:29:32,060 --> 00:29:30,690 or whatever write it beyond that you 781 00:29:33,890 --> 00:29:32,070 know where I thought it was really 782 00:29:35,930 --> 00:29:33,900 interesting where you took us in the 783 00:29:37,550 --> 00:29:35,940 book and I think what you were where you 784 00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:37,560 were going and reaching towards with the 785 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:40,080 shared near-death experience in Raymond 786 00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:41,850 moody and the observers in the 787 00:29:48,970 --> 00:29:45,600 higher-order geometry is that you know 788 00:29:51,380 --> 00:29:48,980 we are so stuck in this materialistic 789 00:29:53,630 --> 00:29:51,390 scientific dogmatic thing and we'll talk 790 00:29:55,580 --> 00:29:53,640 about that in a minute but once we free 791 00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:55,590 ourselves from that is there the 792 00:30:01,910 --> 00:29:58,650 possibility to actually imagine a higher 793 00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:01,920 ordered science that already exists and 794 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:05,310 we're observing in those situations and 795 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:08,250 then where does that take us in terms of 796 00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:10,290 if they really do have a higher order 797 00:30:15,890 --> 00:30:12,720 then is there a whole parallel kind of 798 00:30:18,590 --> 00:30:15,900 science to to that that we have yet to 799 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:18,600 explore yeah there may be I mean 800 00:30:22,250 --> 00:30:20,130 certainly one thing that you find when 801 00:30:24,890 --> 00:30:22,260 you you know when you study the history 802 00:30:27,170 --> 00:30:24,900 of science in the last 150 years is that 803 00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:27,180 you know scientists have been you know 804 00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:29,310 pretty committed to police policing the 805 00:30:33,860 --> 00:30:31,200 boundaries of their disciplines and one 806 00:30:36,110 --> 00:30:33,870 thing that they rule out is any kind of 807 00:30:38,270 --> 00:30:36,120 philosophical or even spiritual 808 00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:38,280 reflection right you see that in my 809 00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:39,960 first book that I mentioned earlier it 810 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:42,380 looked pretty closely at the history of 811 00:30:47,540 --> 00:30:45,090 social sciences you know sociology 812 00:30:49,130 --> 00:30:47,550 psychology psychiatry sciences of mind 813 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:49,140 and brain and one thing that the 814 00:30:53,390 --> 00:30:50,850 founders of those disciplines really 815 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:53,400 work hard at is you know squeezing out 816 00:30:59,150 --> 00:30:57,330 any any mention of any kind of spiritual 817 00:31:00,740 --> 00:30:59,160 thing or any even philosophical 818 00:31:03,530 --> 00:31:00,750 questions and you know maybe you're 819 00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:03,540 right that in the future when scientists 820 00:31:08,810 --> 00:31:06,000 and social scientists are less allergic 821 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:08,820 to or less afraid of thinking about 822 00:31:13,310 --> 00:31:11,130 these other orders of existence or 823 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:13,320 thinking about spirit maybe that opens 824 00:31:18,530 --> 00:31:15,090 up a whole new way of thinking about and 825 00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:18,540 doing science right well that is one of 826 00:31:22,850 --> 00:31:20,640 the conclusions you have in the book or 827 00:31:24,740 --> 00:31:22,860 you have specific examples of where 828 00:31:27,530 --> 00:31:24,750 that's happening right and we all hear 829 00:31:29,130 --> 00:31:27,540 these stories of famous and fantastic 830 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:29,140 scientists who 831 00:31:33,450 --> 00:31:30,850 just come right out and say hey it was 832 00:31:35,820 --> 00:31:33,460 it was a spiritual inspiration that led 833 00:31:38,430 --> 00:31:35,830 me to that discovery which makes us kind 834 00:31:41,610 --> 00:31:38,440 of wonder actually that's kind of a 835 00:31:43,890 --> 00:31:41,620 lead-in to the second topic that I 836 00:31:47,270 --> 00:31:43,900 wanted to kind of throw on the table for 837 00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:47,280 a discussion and that is the cathedral 838 00:31:52,020 --> 00:31:50,320 predates the city and I always like to 839 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:52,030 give credit to Gordon White for this 840 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:53,290 because he's the first one who really 841 00:31:58,740 --> 00:31:55,690 brought my attention to this quote that 842 00:32:01,799 --> 00:31:58,750 was that is attributed to Klaus Schmidt 843 00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:01,809 who was the guy who you know did the 844 00:32:07,530 --> 00:32:04,480 whole gobekli tepe thing in Turkey where 845 00:32:10,890 --> 00:32:07,540 they discover this enormous and amazing 846 00:32:13,730 --> 00:32:10,900 archaeological dig that is ten thousand 847 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:13,740 at least at least 10,000 years before 848 00:32:18,690 --> 00:32:15,850 Egypt and the pyramids and all that 849 00:32:20,610 --> 00:32:18,700 stuff and of course one of the the 850 00:32:24,299 --> 00:32:20,620 takeaways that no one wants to kind of 851 00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:24,309 focus on very much is that now we've 852 00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:28,000 turned this whole myth of progress thing 853 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:30,880 on its head and we always had this idea 854 00:32:34,350 --> 00:32:32,890 that okay well people get together and 855 00:32:37,169 --> 00:32:34,360 they're hunter-gatherers and then they 856 00:32:38,909 --> 00:32:37,179 finally get enough stuff together where 857 00:32:40,409 --> 00:32:38,919 they can build a city and then after 858 00:32:41,940 --> 00:32:40,419 they have a bunch of leisure time then 859 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:41,950 they start sitting around and thinking 860 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:45,130 about God like I'm as low as a hierarchy 861 00:32:50,490 --> 00:32:47,650 of needs or whatever exactly yeah and 862 00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:50,500 what what now the archaeological 863 00:32:55,140 --> 00:32:52,240 evidence is unfolding is telling us 864 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:55,150 exactly the opposite which we were just 865 00:33:00,210 --> 00:32:57,010 talking about a minute ago that the 866 00:33:03,180 --> 00:33:00,220 spiritual impulse from everything we can 867 00:33:05,340 --> 00:33:03,190 tell is the impetus for all of this 868 00:33:07,530 --> 00:33:05,350 and it kind of makes me wonder in some 869 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:07,540 ways are we looking through the wrong 870 00:33:12,539 --> 00:33:09,970 end of the telescope when we focus so 871 00:33:15,870 --> 00:33:12,549 much on science and how science has 872 00:33:18,510 --> 00:33:15,880 informed spirituality is it really the 873 00:33:20,220 --> 00:33:18,520 other way around and and if we can 874 00:33:22,380 --> 00:33:20,230 balance amount say oh well they're 875 00:33:24,780 --> 00:33:22,390 informing each other but if we kind of 876 00:33:26,490 --> 00:33:24,790 take a stand one way or another it kind 877 00:33:27,870 --> 00:33:26,500 of does give us a different perspective 878 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:27,880 on the whole thing 879 00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:30,010 yeah I know that's that's a great point 880 00:33:33,299 --> 00:33:31,809 I mean I agree I think that you know 881 00:33:35,370 --> 00:33:33,309 they're just there seems to be something 882 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:35,380 and human cultures around the world that 883 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:37,450 that people seem to be born with you 884 00:33:42,210 --> 00:33:39,370 know they seem to be born with an 885 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:42,220 interest in finding that orienting point 886 00:33:44,970 --> 00:33:42,850 or that 887 00:33:48,180 --> 00:33:44,980 kind of spiritual connection or the or 888 00:33:50,490 --> 00:33:48,190 maybe a sense of wonderment about what 889 00:33:52,289 --> 00:33:50,500 exists beyond and you know I'm not 890 00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:52,299 surprised right that you're pointing to 891 00:33:56,850 --> 00:33:54,070 the sort of the temple being the first 892 00:33:59,460 --> 00:33:56,860 the first consideration people seem to 893 00:34:01,560 --> 00:33:59,470 pursue that of course you know you know 894 00:34:03,149 --> 00:34:01,570 scientists do come they'll come around 895 00:34:04,860 --> 00:34:03,159 and have an explanation that's secular 896 00:34:06,810 --> 00:34:04,870 for that right which is that you know 897 00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:06,820 well this is this is sort of a you know 898 00:34:10,770 --> 00:34:09,040 an artifact of evolution that you know 899 00:34:14,069 --> 00:34:10,780 that people who have this kind of 900 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:14,079 instinct will will be will be adapted 901 00:34:18,359 --> 00:34:15,970 better to the environment and they have 902 00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:18,369 better survival skills and so on so you 903 00:34:21,930 --> 00:34:19,750 know some religious people have actually 904 00:34:23,399 --> 00:34:21,940 you know made religious arguments about 905 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:23,409 that impulse and said that this is an 906 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:25,210 impulse that is the starting point and 907 00:34:27,869 --> 00:34:27,490 that is sort of a god-given starting 908 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:27,879 point 909 00:34:30,899 --> 00:34:29,169 CS Lewis actually made this argument 910 00:34:32,579 --> 00:34:30,909 many many people make this argument but 911 00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:32,589 scientists do turn it around you know 912 00:34:35,790 --> 00:34:34,270 they end to say that well no this is 913 00:34:37,740 --> 00:34:35,800 just kind of an artifact of evolution 914 00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:37,750 and it doesn't actually point to 915 00:34:40,530 --> 00:34:38,950 anything real 916 00:34:43,770 --> 00:34:40,540 it doesn't actually point to any real 917 00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:43,780 beyond or the existence of a real beyond 918 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:46,030 supernatural so doesn't that kind of beg 919 00:34:50,430 --> 00:34:48,010 the question though I mean that they 920 00:34:52,730 --> 00:34:50,440 want to use that as the arbitrary 921 00:34:55,109 --> 00:34:52,740 starting point then in terms of the 922 00:34:56,669 --> 00:34:55,119 evolutionary process which doesn't make 923 00:35:00,089 --> 00:34:56,679 any sense but you know I feel like those 924 00:35:02,339 --> 00:35:00,099 debates kind of go in circles that would 925 00:35:04,020 --> 00:35:02,349 they don't really wind up anywhere but I 926 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:04,030 do have to interject there because I 927 00:35:08,069 --> 00:35:05,530 think what's important about that 928 00:35:10,460 --> 00:35:08,079 discussion and about materialistic 929 00:35:12,930 --> 00:35:10,470 science and its complete failure 930 00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:12,940 scientifically not only that but 931 00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:14,710 philosophically which we can talk about 932 00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:15,220 in a minute 933 00:35:21,180 --> 00:35:18,250 is I go back to the consciousness thing 934 00:35:23,849 --> 00:35:21,190 yeah and the near-death experience thing 935 00:35:27,780 --> 00:35:23,859 so that little bit of science tells me 936 00:35:32,270 --> 00:35:27,790 okay the neurological models that we 937 00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:32,280 have are either a completely wrong or B 938 00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:34,990 suggests that they can't handle the 939 00:35:40,460 --> 00:35:37,839 evidence that we have because clearly 940 00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:40,470 the evidence we have is that people have 941 00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:43,390 states in which they aren't supposed to 942 00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:46,569 be able to form memories have experience 943 00:35:51,839 --> 00:35:48,910 let alone have the most significant 944 00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:51,849 experiences of their life yeah so their 945 00:35:56,490 --> 00:35:54,160 brains their physiology isn't supposed 946 00:35:59,180 --> 00:35:56,500 to be able to do that and yet scientists 947 00:36:02,190 --> 00:35:59,190 we can match their reports of those 948 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:02,200 experiences with being in that body 949 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:05,290 state so again the whole skeptical thing 950 00:36:10,830 --> 00:36:07,530 I don't know why we have to try and 951 00:36:13,790 --> 00:36:10,840 balance the scales they don't really 952 00:36:15,870 --> 00:36:13,800 have any substance to their arguments 953 00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:15,880 consciousness as far as we can tell from 954 00:36:21,390 --> 00:36:18,480 the evidence at hand seems to survive 955 00:36:24,330 --> 00:36:21,400 bodily death or at least compromise 956 00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:24,340 brain States in a way that undermines 957 00:36:29,970 --> 00:36:28,270 the kind of nitwit neurological model 958 00:36:32,250 --> 00:36:29,980 that we have isn't that a case closed 959 00:36:35,130 --> 00:36:32,260 kind of thing well unfortunately as you 960 00:36:37,350 --> 00:36:35,140 know it's not because like a lot of a 961 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:37,360 lot of a lot of scientists you know it 962 00:36:40,590 --> 00:36:38,890 may be for some of the reasons we've 963 00:36:42,540 --> 00:36:40,600 already talked about in terms of you 964 00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:42,550 know the ways that scientists 965 00:36:46,380 --> 00:36:44,800 psychologists neurologists you know kind 966 00:36:48,030 --> 00:36:46,390 of police the limits of their discipline 967 00:36:49,890 --> 00:36:48,040 but whenever something like that comes 968 00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:49,900 up I think they you know you you might 969 00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:52,240 either kind of you know rule it out as 970 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:54,190 saying well I can't talk about that 971 00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:55,450 because it's not quote-unquote 972 00:36:59,220 --> 00:36:57,520 scientific as I've as I've defined what 973 00:37:01,200 --> 00:36:59,230 scientific it is or or they'll try to 974 00:37:03,930 --> 00:37:01,210 develop an alternate explanation now I 975 00:37:05,490 --> 00:37:03,940 think like you I don't really find you 976 00:37:08,010 --> 00:37:05,500 know the alternate explanations as 977 00:37:09,290 --> 00:37:08,020 persuasive as as some scientists do 978 00:37:12,210 --> 00:37:09,300 right because I mean as you know 979 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:12,220 scientists will come up with you know 980 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:14,170 their own explanations for you know how 981 00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:15,970 it might be possible in the last moments 982 00:37:19,260 --> 00:37:17,110 of life to have these kind of 983 00:37:22,590 --> 00:37:19,270 experiences and so on like you I don't 984 00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:22,600 find those persuasive so what can you 985 00:37:25,530 --> 00:37:23,830 say it's sort of like you said is that 986 00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:25,540 gonna go you can kind of go around and 987 00:37:29,070 --> 00:37:27,670 around but I do think that on the issue 988 00:37:31,860 --> 00:37:29,080 of consciousness you're right I think 989 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:31,870 that when you consciousness for the last 990 00:37:35,970 --> 00:37:34,210 50 years has been a kind of um you know 991 00:37:39,540 --> 00:37:35,980 an inflection point for science I think 992 00:37:43,260 --> 00:37:39,550 it's been a category that that creates a 993 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:43,270 lot of tension and and hand wringing you 994 00:37:47,940 --> 00:37:45,850 know now right with quantum mechanics 995 00:37:49,950 --> 00:37:47,950 and the ways that it is moved 996 00:37:52,110 --> 00:37:49,960 subjectivity human subjectivity and 997 00:37:54,780 --> 00:37:52,120 consciousness to the foreground I think 998 00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:54,790 that creates so many so much anxiety 999 00:37:59,130 --> 00:37:57,520 right for for scientists right because 1000 00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:59,140 of the issue that I mentioned earlier 1001 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:00,160 which is that you know they've been 1002 00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:03,810 pretty determined to kind of keep out 1003 00:38:09,930 --> 00:38:06,910 keep keep out outside of the boundaries 1004 00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:09,940 of science these kind of questions about 1005 00:38:14,010 --> 00:38:11,710 you know things that might transcend the 1006 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:14,020 material world and consciousness really 1007 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:17,050 provides you know a lot of trouble right 1008 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:19,090 you know all these theories and physics 1009 00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:20,530 and quantum mechanics about the role of 1010 00:38:25,710 --> 00:38:22,510 the conscious observer you know it seems 1011 00:38:27,810 --> 00:38:25,720 to have some sort of role in shaping or 1012 00:38:29,850 --> 00:38:27,820 influencing physical reality at the 1013 00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:29,860 quantum level and and then all kinds of 1014 00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:32,320 ways of trying to interpret you know or 1015 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:33,910 explain away you know how that could be 1016 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:35,290 possible right and the history of 1017 00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:37,210 quantum mechanics or just what you had 1018 00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:39,520 in the 50s nineteen fifty forty fifties 1019 00:38:44,370 --> 00:38:41,710 and sixties just a lot of people saying 1020 00:38:46,650 --> 00:38:44,380 look just forget about that hey now just 1021 00:38:49,290 --> 00:38:46,660 you know let's just be physicists and 1022 00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:49,300 kind of calculate and not talk about you 1023 00:38:52,770 --> 00:38:50,320 know those things that we don't 1024 00:38:55,260 --> 00:38:52,780 understand one of which is the role of 1025 00:38:57,450 --> 00:38:55,270 subjectivity in shaping physical reality 1026 00:38:58,890 --> 00:38:57,460 let's just not talk about that and let's 1027 00:39:01,140 --> 00:38:58,900 just do our work you know the equation 1028 00:39:02,550 --> 00:39:01,150 seems to work so again that that's a 1029 00:39:05,060 --> 00:39:02,560 group of scientists who are just sort of 1030 00:39:07,230 --> 00:39:05,070 ruling out a conversation and 1031 00:39:09,570 --> 00:39:07,240 consciousness is it is a tricky issue 1032 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:09,580 and as I'm sure you know you know some 1033 00:39:13,830 --> 00:39:11,530 of these what mate what makes it worse 1034 00:39:15,570 --> 00:39:13,840 these businesses some of the some very 1035 00:39:17,820 --> 00:39:15,580 prominent physicists within their myths 1036 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:17,830 right they start to go off and have 1037 00:39:21,390 --> 00:39:19,450 these kind of spiritual and 1038 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:21,400 philosophical reflections you know and 1039 00:39:26,220 --> 00:39:23,770 say things like you know like well I 1040 00:39:27,870 --> 00:39:26,230 think you know in order for our world to 1041 00:39:29,610 --> 00:39:27,880 exist like it does you know we must have 1042 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:29,620 we must have a god that's the ultimate 1043 00:39:34,140 --> 00:39:32,170 consciousness and God you know observed 1044 00:39:36,420 --> 00:39:34,150 the universe and provoked it into into a 1045 00:39:38,370 --> 00:39:36,430 concrete existent you know like Eugene 1046 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:38,380 Wigner it's Nobel Prize when he visits 1047 00:39:42,090 --> 00:39:39,850 us who who makes that kind of statement 1048 00:39:44,370 --> 00:39:42,100 right that even causes more anxiety for 1049 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:44,380 the physicists right so oh my god you 1050 00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:46,210 know you can't talk we can't talk like 1051 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:48,640 this so but but you're right 1052 00:39:53,370 --> 00:39:51,370 consciousness has become a real thorn 1053 00:39:55,620 --> 00:39:53,380 you know and a real difficult issue for 1054 00:39:58,440 --> 00:39:55,630 scientists who want to rule out broader 1055 00:40:00,360 --> 00:39:58,450 philosophical conversation you know I 1056 00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:00,370 actually think this shut up and 1057 00:40:07,410 --> 00:40:03,640 calculate your assertion is kind of a 1058 00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:07,420 more intellectually honest approach that 1059 00:40:12,980 --> 00:40:09,400 the only problem I see with it is that 1060 00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:12,990 they then forget that they've done a 1061 00:40:17,580 --> 00:40:15,100 philosophical bypass with the whole 1062 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:17,590 problem I mean it's no there's there's 1063 00:40:21,870 --> 00:40:20,290 no issue for me in reaching an impasse 1064 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:21,880 and saying you know what let's set that 1065 00:40:26,070 --> 00:40:23,650 aside so we can go 1066 00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:26,080 do our calculations and build our iPhone 1067 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:29,200 that's great but you can't then pretend 1068 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:33,730 like you didn't do that sidestep well 1069 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:35,410 you know yeah exactly but as you know 1070 00:40:38,610 --> 00:40:37,210 this I have all kinds of ways of you 1071 00:40:39,870 --> 00:40:38,620 know reasoning out reasoning in 1072 00:40:41,790 --> 00:40:39,880 themselves out of these things 1073 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:41,800 well and one thing they say is like well 1074 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:43,690 as I define science those questions 1075 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:45,610 don't fit in with with my definition so 1076 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:47,650 you know I don't talk about them but 1077 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:49,210 that's just a way of punting the ball 1078 00:40:54,090 --> 00:40:52,090 and giving up you know and it's it's not 1079 00:40:56,430 --> 00:40:54,100 a very and then the other issue is you 1080 00:40:57,900 --> 00:40:56,440 know that often materialist worldviews 1081 00:40:59,760 --> 00:40:57,910 kind of sneak in the back door or 1082 00:41:01,920 --> 00:40:59,770 they're operating at all kinds of levels 1083 00:41:03,930 --> 00:41:01,930 that these scientists scientists are not 1084 00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:03,940 willing to admit they are actually 1085 00:41:08,460 --> 00:41:06,160 privileged in a metaphysical system you 1086 00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:08,470 know it's it's it's materialism you know 1087 00:41:12,660 --> 00:41:10,720 it's it's um physicalism or whatever you 1088 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:12,670 want to call it on with a high degree of 1089 00:41:17,790 --> 00:41:15,850 faith really so if you look at it from 1090 00:41:20,660 --> 00:41:17,800 that perspective they've chosen a 1091 00:41:23,850 --> 00:41:20,670 starting point yes and they've chosen an 1092 00:41:27,230 --> 00:41:23,860 unproven theory that is scientific 1093 00:41:30,540 --> 00:41:27,240 materialism and they've put that above 1094 00:41:32,970 --> 00:41:30,550 experience right so how everyone hasn't 1095 00:41:35,460 --> 00:41:32,980 the experience of being conscious of 1096 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:35,470 there being a reality to their conscious 1097 00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,050 experience so if we set aside whether 1098 00:41:41,940 --> 00:41:40,000 that is real or whether you should trust 1099 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:41,950 your experience at least we have to 1100 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:43,210 acknowledge that that's your experience 1101 00:41:47,850 --> 00:41:45,730 and then so philosophically if you're 1102 00:41:49,140 --> 00:41:47,860 choosing something different what are 1103 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:49,150 you choosing well you're choosing a 1104 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:51,490 theory well that's okay has that Theory 1105 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:53,770 been tested and proven well no it really 1106 00:42:01,830 --> 00:41:57,490 hasn't been proven in terms of in in a 1107 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:01,840 real robust way in terms of establishing 1108 00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:03,970 scientific materialism and you and I are 1109 00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:06,310 talking about as a matter of fact the 1110 00:42:10,590 --> 00:42:08,710 data the more you look at it suggests 1111 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:10,600 that that theory really has been 1112 00:42:14,730 --> 00:42:12,370 falsified over and over again so it's 1113 00:42:17,340 --> 00:42:14,740 kind of a strange situation we find 1114 00:42:18,750 --> 00:42:17,350 ourselves in yeah I think so I mean I 1115 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:18,760 think you know people do have a 1116 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:20,890 metaphysical starting point which as you 1117 00:42:25,140 --> 00:42:22,810 say is not really a proven thing but is 1118 00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:25,150 more just the set of assumptions I'm 1119 00:42:29,250 --> 00:42:27,760 accepting and you know they include that 1120 00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:29,260 they include that they're all there is 1121 00:42:33,390 --> 00:42:30,910 as matter you know in the world 1122 00:42:36,570 --> 00:42:33,400 give me one miracle and I can explain 1123 00:42:37,349 --> 00:42:36,580 the rest you know and that kind of leads 1124 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:37,359 into the 1125 00:42:41,099 --> 00:42:39,729 the third and the the last big topic I 1126 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:41,109 had and then we can talk about other 1127 00:42:45,390 --> 00:42:43,930 stuff anything yeah I miss you but and 1128 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:45,400 this is kind of a tough one I'm going to 1129 00:42:59,839 --> 00:42:47,650 pull you into the deep waters here Chris 1130 00:43:02,729 --> 00:42:59,849 but here's how I've labeled it 1131 00:43:05,489 --> 00:43:02,739 scientific materialism social 1132 00:43:08,999 --> 00:43:05,499 engineering and the spirituality of 1133 00:43:13,410 --> 00:43:09,009 dystopia and I want to throw out the 1134 00:43:17,249 --> 00:43:13,420 idea that this wacky scientific 1135 00:43:20,339 --> 00:43:17,259 materialism and it is wacky has its 1136 00:43:23,099 --> 00:43:20,349 roots in a social engineering project in 1137 00:43:25,319 --> 00:43:23,109 a project that in a lot of ways if we 1138 00:43:26,789 --> 00:43:25,329 look at the I don't want to say deep 1139 00:43:27,989 --> 00:43:26,799 state and shadow government cuz it kind 1140 00:43:29,609 --> 00:43:27,999 of throws people in a lot of different 1141 00:43:31,469 --> 00:43:29,619 ways but if we look at the remote 1142 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:31,479 viewing research that's done at Stanford 1143 00:43:36,180 --> 00:43:33,729 Research Institute okay that's just 1144 00:43:37,650 --> 00:43:36,190 solid stuff you can trace the money in 1145 00:43:39,809 --> 00:43:37,660 Stanford Research Institute and they 1146 00:43:41,729 --> 00:43:39,819 really did all this stuff or if you look 1147 00:43:43,859 --> 00:43:41,739 at the MKULTRA stuff which is really 1148 00:43:45,420 --> 00:43:43,869 sinister but it's still real they did it 1149 00:43:47,819 --> 00:43:45,430 and we have the documents and all that 1150 00:43:50,370 --> 00:43:47,829 stuff it's clear that these guys didn't 1151 00:43:54,089 --> 00:43:50,380 believe in scientific materialism they 1152 00:43:57,209 --> 00:43:54,099 were way off the reservation on this so 1153 00:43:59,370 --> 00:43:57,219 that brings me back to the understanding 1154 00:44:01,529 --> 00:43:59,380 or the idea or at least willing to 1155 00:44:05,009 --> 00:44:01,539 consider that what this scientific 1156 00:44:06,930 --> 00:44:05,019 materialism is about is really social 1157 00:44:10,229 --> 00:44:06,940 engineering however you want to kind of 1158 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:10,239 put that it's it's part of of a meme 1159 00:44:17,009 --> 00:44:13,650 that makes people more I don't know 1160 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:17,019 controllable or just heads culture in a 1161 00:44:23,759 --> 00:44:20,890 way that certain groups think might be 1162 00:44:26,459 --> 00:44:23,769 advantageous for culture to move to for 1163 00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:26,469 whatever reasons but linked with that 1164 00:44:32,430 --> 00:44:28,150 and this is really the troubling part 1165 00:44:35,189 --> 00:44:32,440 that I see is this this dystopia that 1166 00:44:37,170 --> 00:44:35,199 you know I we shared a link as your pop 1167 00:44:39,180 --> 00:44:37,180 culture guy and you know shared a link 1168 00:44:41,099 --> 00:44:39,190 to the black mirror show which is really 1169 00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:41,109 a cool show and I just watch with my 1170 00:44:45,209 --> 00:44:43,150 wife then we just watched the latest 1171 00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:45,219 episode which was really cool but it's 1172 00:44:51,359 --> 00:44:48,910 also freaking depressing it's you just 1173 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:51,369 want to take a shower afterward 1174 00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:53,890 you know this is the vision for where 1175 00:44:59,520 --> 00:44:56,970 this advancement this technological 1176 00:45:02,460 --> 00:44:59,530 advancement this scientific advancement 1177 00:45:04,890 --> 00:45:02,470 this is where it will lead lead us your 1178 00:45:07,770 --> 00:45:04,900 book is refreshing it's uplifting and 1179 00:45:10,530 --> 00:45:07,780 it's certainly inspiring but I don't get 1180 00:45:13,710 --> 00:45:10,540 that from what our culture is telling us 1181 00:45:16,530 --> 00:45:13,720 about science and where science is going 1182 00:45:19,410 --> 00:45:16,540 and I do suspect that there's another 1183 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:19,420 agenda behind this what are your 1184 00:45:24,090 --> 00:45:21,970 thoughts yeah those are those are big 1185 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:24,100 questions I mean a couple of things I 1186 00:45:28,770 --> 00:45:25,690 would say that you know just of to 1187 00:45:31,650 --> 00:45:28,780 divide you know American history over 1188 00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:31,660 the last 150 years you know and maybe we 1189 00:45:35,730 --> 00:45:34,000 divide it around you know 1950 or 1190 00:45:38,430 --> 00:45:35,740 something but I would say that you know 1191 00:45:41,010 --> 00:45:38,440 between 1850 and 1950 you know you have 1192 00:45:42,750 --> 00:45:41,020 the rise of science you know when you go 1193 00:45:45,990 --> 00:45:42,760 back and read people from that period 1194 00:45:48,990 --> 00:45:46,000 there's a lot of euphoria about about 1195 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:49,000 science about social sciences about 1196 00:45:53,550 --> 00:45:51,490 biology you know chemistry physics 1197 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:53,560 there's a lot of euphoria and a lot of 1198 00:45:58,109 --> 00:45:56,170 hope and optimism and a sense of that if 1199 00:46:00,420 --> 00:45:58,119 we just keep working and get better and 1200 00:46:02,820 --> 00:46:00,430 better and and devote more more funding 1201 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:02,830 to big science that we're going to be 1202 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:04,930 able to solve problems and we're gonna 1203 00:46:08,220 --> 00:46:07,090 be able to you know this gets back to 1204 00:46:09,930 --> 00:46:08,230 your question about social engineering 1205 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:09,940 but we're gonna be able to solve human 1206 00:46:14,060 --> 00:46:12,130 problems we're gonna be able to raise 1207 00:46:16,349 --> 00:46:14,070 better babies we're gonna be able to 1208 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:16,359 raise better people we're gonna be able 1209 00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:18,850 to you know have a lot of success in 1210 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:21,310 technology and I think it I think we 1211 00:46:25,140 --> 00:46:23,530 should say that a lot of that was true I 1212 00:46:27,530 --> 00:46:25,150 mean I think we should say that science 1213 00:46:29,310 --> 00:46:27,540 does is amazing and amazing like 1214 00:46:31,410 --> 00:46:29,320 antibiotics 1215 00:46:33,690 --> 00:46:31,420 you know prosthetic limbs um you know 1216 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:33,700 new technologies like the iPhone I mean 1217 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:35,650 there is a way in which between 1850 and 1218 00:46:40,670 --> 00:46:38,530 1950 a lot of amazing things did happen 1219 00:46:43,770 --> 00:46:40,680 I mean telephones right television 1220 00:46:45,570 --> 00:46:43,780 electric light so science was this thing 1221 00:46:47,790 --> 00:46:45,580 that people embraced with awe and wonder 1222 00:46:50,609 --> 00:46:47,800 and and people were fully on board with 1223 00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:50,619 and many of the cultural authorities in 1224 00:46:56,220 --> 00:46:53,310 this country right we're embracing and 1225 00:46:58,440 --> 00:46:56,230 putting tax dollars behind and all the 1226 00:47:00,210 --> 00:46:58,450 way through to through the wars for sure 1227 00:47:03,390 --> 00:47:00,220 right which with the wars themselves 1228 00:47:04,349 --> 00:47:03,400 were great incubators of new medical 1229 00:47:05,759 --> 00:47:04,359 science and 1230 00:47:07,859 --> 00:47:05,769 other kinds of technologies and 1231 00:47:10,229 --> 00:47:07,869 obviously wars are not great examples of 1232 00:47:11,819 --> 00:47:10,239 what what technology can do but so I 1233 00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:11,829 think technology and science there was 1234 00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:14,319 this really forea a lot of optimism 1235 00:47:19,529 --> 00:47:16,960 about it and I think if you watch the 1236 00:47:22,109 --> 00:47:19,539 sci-fi equivalents of you know stranger 1237 00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:22,119 things for instance right back in 1940 1238 00:47:26,729 --> 00:47:24,910 it looks different I think you know even 1239 00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:26,739 even some of the Twilight Zone you know 1240 00:47:32,069 --> 00:47:29,529 you have these kind of heroic lab white 1241 00:47:35,099 --> 00:47:32,079 lab coat at figure male scientists who 1242 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:35,109 basically you know save the day so I 1243 00:47:38,279 --> 00:47:36,970 think science back then was one thing 1244 00:47:40,529 --> 00:47:38,289 and then I think what's happened now 1245 00:47:42,539 --> 00:47:40,539 since 1950 is a maybe a slightly 1246 00:47:45,809 --> 00:47:42,549 different picture that we're getting 1247 00:47:48,089 --> 00:47:45,819 from artists and cultural elites on 1248 00:47:50,970 --> 00:47:48,099 television film and you're right it 1249 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:50,980 looks very dystopian you know stranger 1250 00:47:55,049 --> 00:47:53,650 things or you know a lot of sci-fi about 1251 00:47:57,989 --> 00:47:55,059 other dimensions 1252 00:48:00,299 --> 00:47:57,999 you know the matrix a lot of these shows 1253 00:48:02,549 --> 00:48:00,309 or even the new film interstellar from 1254 00:48:05,249 --> 00:48:02,559 2014 a lot of these films are about 1255 00:48:07,589 --> 00:48:05,259 dystopias and the dystopias are created 1256 00:48:09,450 --> 00:48:07,599 by science got run amuck I mean our 1257 00:48:10,380 --> 00:48:09,460 technologies run amok and they've 1258 00:48:13,829 --> 00:48:10,390 destroyed the world 1259 00:48:16,529 --> 00:48:13,839 you know I'm global warming you know has 1260 00:48:18,660 --> 00:48:16,539 has destroyed the world right and so in 1261 00:48:21,569 --> 00:48:18,670 in since nineteen fifty or sixty I think 1262 00:48:23,700 --> 00:48:21,579 there's been a kind of a turn and much 1263 00:48:25,739 --> 00:48:23,710 more skepticism about science and what 1264 00:48:28,979 --> 00:48:25,749 it what it's bringing us much more 1265 00:48:31,019 --> 00:48:28,989 skepticism about technology and and 1266 00:48:34,289 --> 00:48:31,029 about nuclear power and nuclear weapons 1267 00:48:36,390 --> 00:48:34,299 and so I think I think you know there is 1268 00:48:38,099 --> 00:48:36,400 a there is a turning point there you 1269 00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:38,109 know but but I have to wonder in the 1270 00:48:42,749 --> 00:48:40,480 same way that your book explores the you 1271 00:48:45,749 --> 00:48:42,759 know the interaction between science and 1272 00:48:48,539 --> 00:48:45,759 spirituality there's definitely an 1273 00:48:52,140 --> 00:48:48,549 interaction between the the social 1274 00:48:54,210 --> 00:48:52,150 engineering project and the evolving of 1275 00:48:55,019 --> 00:48:54,220 culture you know so I just wonder which 1276 00:48:56,729 --> 00:48:55,029 comes first 1277 00:49:00,180 --> 00:48:56,739 I think there's there was a certain 1278 00:49:03,799 --> 00:49:00,190 awakening it within our culture that 1279 00:49:07,019 --> 00:49:03,809 exposed the of the perfect 1280 00:49:10,410 --> 00:49:07,029 1940s 50s lab code scientist that's the 1281 00:49:12,809 --> 00:49:10,420 1960s exactly so they become unmasked 1282 00:49:15,509 --> 00:49:12,819 and one thing that we know from studying 1283 00:49:18,270 --> 00:49:15,519 the social engineering project is those 1284 00:49:21,420 --> 00:49:18,280 guys are sharp and they're one step 1285 00:49:24,090 --> 00:49:21,430 of the game so then the game shifts to 1286 00:49:27,090 --> 00:49:24,100 what's the ultimate co-opt is to then 1287 00:49:29,610 --> 00:49:27,100 jump on that side and go yeah those guys 1288 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:29,620 in the lab coats they're not so great 1289 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:33,130 there is this dystopic future but then 1290 00:49:37,260 --> 00:49:35,650 that is co-opted as well to tell a 1291 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:37,270 different story you know 1292 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:39,850 it then leads to something else the 1293 00:49:43,530 --> 00:49:41,890 example I often use because it's such a 1294 00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:43,540 great one and people so many people 1295 00:49:49,140 --> 00:49:46,720 aren't aware of it is like feminism and 1296 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:49,150 Gloria Steinem because she's totally 1297 00:49:54,570 --> 00:49:52,090 been outed as a CIA operative not just 1298 00:49:57,150 --> 00:49:54,580 during her little feminist project but a 1299 00:49:59,640 --> 00:49:57,160 lifetime player who's still involved 1300 00:50:01,260 --> 00:49:59,650 with these kind of bizarre women's 1301 00:50:02,910 --> 00:50:01,270 rights for Syria you know one of the 1302 00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:02,920 most secular countries in the Middle 1303 00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:05,440 East the point being there's nothing to 1304 00:50:09,210 --> 00:50:06,250 get upset about 1305 00:50:12,090 --> 00:50:09,220 of course feminism had a just cause a 1306 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:12,100 just purpose just goals behind it but 1307 00:50:17,820 --> 00:50:14,410 the co-opting of it is the interesting 1308 00:50:19,830 --> 00:50:17,830 part how they get in there and then they 1309 00:50:21,990 --> 00:50:19,840 just want a foot in the door to be able 1310 00:50:24,540 --> 00:50:22,000 to shape things the way that they want 1311 00:50:27,540 --> 00:50:24,550 and I just wonder and worry if that's 1312 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:27,550 what we're seeing with with science and 1313 00:50:32,700 --> 00:50:30,370 the way scientific materialism even 1314 00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:32,710 though it's fails again and again and 1315 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:35,730 again it gets propped up and it gets 1316 00:50:40,650 --> 00:50:38,650 Rhiannon and like you said it you know 1317 00:50:43,470 --> 00:50:40,660 it never seems to die there's always 1318 00:50:45,540 --> 00:50:43,480 another explanation as bizarre as it can 1319 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:45,550 be and they're all those explanations 1320 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:48,010 always come from our quote-unquote top 1321 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:51,370 scientists and meanwhile you know but 1322 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:53,290 we're being told that the result of all 1323 00:50:59,300 --> 00:50:55,810 this what it's going to lead to is not 1324 00:51:01,980 --> 00:50:59,310 very good and not very positive so a 1325 00:51:05,130 --> 00:51:01,990 long-winded there but is this transition 1326 00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:05,140 that you're talking about which I see 1327 00:51:10,980 --> 00:51:07,510 and I think everybody sees is that 1328 00:51:14,310 --> 00:51:10,990 potentially another co-op move you know 1329 00:51:16,230 --> 00:51:14,320 where that's been co-opted yeah yeah 1330 00:51:17,850 --> 00:51:16,240 it's a good question I mean I think that 1331 00:51:20,820 --> 00:51:17,860 I think that when we talk about you know 1332 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:20,830 what what they're doing in terms of you 1333 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:21,970 know those people who are doing the 1334 00:51:25,380 --> 00:51:23,530 social engineering I might want to break 1335 00:51:27,210 --> 00:51:25,390 that down a little bit and and talk 1336 00:51:28,950 --> 00:51:27,220 about different types of people you know 1337 00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:28,960 I might want to talk about you know 1338 00:51:34,220 --> 00:51:32,640 artists people involved in the media 1339 00:51:37,099 --> 00:51:34,230 you know you might want to talk about 1340 00:51:38,839 --> 00:51:37,109 government because you know you might me 1341 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:38,849 talk about corporations and advertising 1342 00:51:43,220 --> 00:51:40,890 you might you might want to talk about 1343 00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:43,230 this big business and I think everybody 1344 00:51:46,670 --> 00:51:44,730 has a different you know a different 1345 00:51:48,710 --> 00:51:46,680 angle on this but you know what when I 1346 00:51:51,290 --> 00:51:48,720 when I think about like the dystopian 1347 00:51:53,180 --> 00:51:51,300 fiction which is in novels and in 1348 00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:53,190 television and films I mean I see 1349 00:51:57,500 --> 00:51:55,530 something different there I I don't know 1350 00:51:59,900 --> 00:51:57,510 that I see that as an effort by elites 1351 00:52:02,150 --> 00:51:59,910 to kind of get our attention by by 1352 00:52:04,940 --> 00:52:02,160 playing out our dystopian sort of years 1353 00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:04,950 or fantasies I see that more as kind of 1354 00:52:10,490 --> 00:52:07,200 a reflection of kind of a skepticism 1355 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:10,500 about big bit big business or big 1356 00:52:16,370 --> 00:52:12,210 government you know I kind of see some 1357 00:52:17,930 --> 00:52:16,380 of those visions as pushing back right 1358 00:52:19,579 --> 00:52:17,940 rather than co-opt you know I see those 1359 00:52:20,809 --> 00:52:19,589 visions in some ways that's kind of 1360 00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:20,819 pushing back in the same ways that 1361 00:52:24,109 --> 00:52:22,440 people in the sixties sort of push back 1362 00:52:25,940 --> 00:52:24,119 and said you know what big government is 1363 00:52:28,010 --> 00:52:25,950 not it doesn't have our best interests 1364 00:52:30,140 --> 00:52:28,020 at heart right or the the US military is 1365 00:52:32,510 --> 00:52:30,150 kind of in it for itself so I see some 1366 00:52:34,670 --> 00:52:32,520 of the artistic and fictional and a 1367 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:34,680 televisual I see some of that stuff as 1368 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:37,650 push back against you know against the 1369 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:40,890 the older idea of the heroic scientist 1370 00:52:45,020 --> 00:52:42,690 who's just has our best interest or 1371 00:52:46,579 --> 00:52:45,030 right or the American government that 1372 00:52:48,260 --> 00:52:46,589 just has our best interest I think that 1373 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:48,270 I think that's why you have a lot more 1374 00:52:53,420 --> 00:52:50,010 conspiracy type thinking a lot more 1375 00:52:55,819 --> 00:52:53,430 skepticism now about the government and 1376 00:52:57,620 --> 00:52:55,829 about big businesses you you have a many 1377 00:52:59,960 --> 00:52:57,630 decades of kind of push back and some of 1378 00:53:01,910 --> 00:52:59,970 that is some of that is created by these 1379 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:01,920 artists and writers who are creating 1380 00:53:07,010 --> 00:53:04,770 these dystopian stories I mean you're 1381 00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:07,020 you're right it it is depressing the 1382 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:08,880 dystopian stuff and I've actually also 1383 00:53:13,130 --> 00:53:10,530 wondered like you where is this coming 1384 00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,140 from I've also you know Cormac McCarthy 1385 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:15,119 or films or whatever it is I've also 1386 00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:16,290 kind of wondered you know what is the 1387 00:53:21,170 --> 00:53:18,210 great appeal today of the dystopian 1388 00:53:22,670 --> 00:53:21,180 novel and you know and maybe it maybe it 1389 00:53:25,339 --> 00:53:22,680 speaks to kind of the way in which 1390 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:25,349 people have lost hope you know people 1391 00:53:29,839 --> 00:53:27,930 have lost faith they've lost hope you 1392 00:53:31,309 --> 00:53:29,849 know I don't know I mean maybe I sound 1393 00:53:32,690 --> 00:53:31,319 kind of old-timey with that explanation 1394 00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:32,700 oh I don't I don't think you sound 1395 00:53:37,250 --> 00:53:35,250 old-timey at all and I think you make a 1396 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:37,260 couple of great fantastic points that I 1397 00:53:40,099 --> 00:53:38,490 want to come pull out and highlight 1398 00:53:41,990 --> 00:53:40,109 because they're new to me and one is 1399 00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:42,000 that we do have to be very careful when 1400 00:53:45,329 --> 00:53:44,160 we say they and or even when I say 1401 00:53:48,180 --> 00:53:45,339 social engineering 1402 00:53:50,339 --> 00:53:48,190 you know it's multi-faceted like you 1403 00:53:52,620 --> 00:53:50,349 said corporations are clearly doing it 1404 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:52,630 and with with just one goal and that's 1405 00:53:57,420 --> 00:53:55,690 just to make money coke and a smile and 1406 00:53:59,459 --> 00:53:57,430 all that and we get that and then 1407 00:54:02,039 --> 00:53:59,469 there's other parts that are valid in 1408 00:54:04,170 --> 00:54:02,049 terms of protecting our way of life 1409 00:54:06,509 --> 00:54:04,180 however uncomfortable that is there are 1410 00:54:09,599 --> 00:54:06,519 other forces and we don't want to be 1411 00:54:11,789 --> 00:54:09,609 some of the other countries or cultures 1412 00:54:13,529 --> 00:54:11,799 that we see we like our thing better so 1413 00:54:15,329 --> 00:54:13,539 all that stuff is really good I'm glad 1414 00:54:16,799 --> 00:54:15,339 you bring it up you know on your last 1415 00:54:19,620 --> 00:54:16,809 point though I really wanted to kind of 1416 00:54:21,359 --> 00:54:19,630 jump on that in and kind of get a little 1417 00:54:24,150 --> 00:54:21,369 dialogue in a little bit of time we have 1418 00:54:27,599 --> 00:54:24,160 left on that is that the thing that your 1419 00:54:29,370 --> 00:54:27,609 book does so beautifully is it weaves 1420 00:54:31,529 --> 00:54:29,380 together the stuff that really is there 1421 00:54:33,289 --> 00:54:31,539 all these threads that we might overlook 1422 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:33,299 and says you know there really is a 1423 00:54:37,859 --> 00:54:35,890 spirituality to science there really is 1424 00:54:39,989 --> 00:54:37,869 a interplay and if we start with 1425 00:54:41,969 --> 00:54:39,999 spirituality or we start with science we 1426 00:54:43,079 --> 00:54:41,979 kind of wind up in the same place and 1427 00:54:46,049 --> 00:54:43,089 isn't that interesting 1428 00:54:48,209 --> 00:54:46,059 isn't that something we should pay more 1429 00:54:51,599 --> 00:54:48,219 attention to and perhaps put our 1430 00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:51,609 attention towards and I contrast that 1431 00:54:56,729 --> 00:54:54,640 with what I get from the social 1432 00:54:59,819 --> 00:54:56,739 engineering project that is scientific 1433 00:55:02,219 --> 00:54:59,829 materialism in my opinion and the 1434 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:02,229 conclusion is the absolute opposite of 1435 00:55:05,819 --> 00:55:03,729 that it's a pulling a part of those 1436 00:55:09,089 --> 00:55:05,829 threads it's the spirituality of 1437 00:55:11,759 --> 00:55:09,099 dystopia yeah yeah I think that's true I 1438 00:55:13,410 --> 00:55:11,769 do see I do see that and and that's I 1439 00:55:16,380 --> 00:55:13,420 think that's disheartening too you know 1440 00:55:20,519 --> 00:55:16,390 and I don't think it's I don't think it 1441 00:55:23,940 --> 00:55:20,529 leads to you know hope right I don't I 1442 00:55:26,430 --> 00:55:23,950 think it leads to optimism or hope but 1443 00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:26,440 yeah I mean I I appreciate what you're 1444 00:55:31,799 --> 00:55:27,729 saying about the book in the sense that 1445 00:55:33,950 --> 00:55:31,809 it does try to weave a story through 1446 00:55:36,390 --> 00:55:33,960 science and pop culture about the 1447 00:55:38,249 --> 00:55:36,400 possibilities of a new type of science 1448 00:55:39,870 --> 00:55:38,259 and I think that you know in some ways 1449 00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:39,880 that that new type of science has 1450 00:55:43,529 --> 00:55:41,680 arrived in some ways I think that their 1451 00:55:45,269 --> 00:55:43,539 scientists themselves especially when 1452 00:55:47,459 --> 00:55:45,279 you see them you know get on television 1453 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:47,469 and a write a popular a popular science 1454 00:55:52,410 --> 00:55:50,410 book you know they they traffic and all 1455 00:55:55,049 --> 00:55:52,420 of these kind of fantastic scientific 1456 00:55:56,789 --> 00:55:55,059 ideas now right and they had a sense of 1457 00:55:58,900 --> 00:55:56,799 kind of excitement and a sense of wonder 1458 00:56:01,150 --> 00:55:58,910 and I mentioned Brian Greene earlier but 1459 00:56:03,549 --> 00:56:01,160 you know there's also michio kaku and 1460 00:56:06,730 --> 00:56:03,559 there's many scientists who have a real 1461 00:56:08,289 --> 00:56:06,740 sense of kind of on wonder about nature 1462 00:56:12,039 --> 00:56:08,299 and its many mysteries right whether 1463 00:56:14,109 --> 00:56:12,049 that's entanglement or nonlocality or 1464 00:56:16,779 --> 00:56:14,119 dark matter her dark energy or the 1465 00:56:18,339 --> 00:56:16,789 multiverse or or higher dimensions you 1466 00:56:20,380 --> 00:56:18,349 know or the many-worlds interpretation 1467 00:56:22,299 --> 00:56:20,390 of quantum mechanics you know there 1468 00:56:24,730 --> 00:56:22,309 there have been in the last 50 years 1469 00:56:26,230 --> 00:56:24,740 these kind of fantastic pieces of 1470 00:56:28,779 --> 00:56:26,240 science that have kind of come back in 1471 00:56:30,700 --> 00:56:28,789 the back door even even even while 1472 00:56:32,650 --> 00:56:30,710 scientists themselves that try to try to 1473 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:32,660 keep them out so I think they kind of 1474 00:56:37,569 --> 00:56:35,930 have come back and I think scientist um 1475 00:56:39,759 --> 00:56:37,579 scientists especially scientists who 1476 00:56:40,990 --> 00:56:39,769 write popular science they in many ways 1477 00:56:43,029 --> 00:56:41,000 they can't help themselves they have to 1478 00:56:45,549 --> 00:56:43,039 bring these things in because you know 1479 00:56:47,740 --> 00:56:45,559 people are doing popular science need 1480 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:47,750 and want buy it then they want to sell 1481 00:56:52,990 --> 00:56:50,930 books and you know the way to do that is 1482 00:56:54,730 --> 00:56:53,000 to is to sort of have this kind of 1483 00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,740 excitement right have this kind of more 1484 00:56:58,690 --> 00:56:56,720 open-ended science have these kind of 1485 00:57:01,769 --> 00:56:58,700 more fantastic scientific notions or 1486 00:57:04,599 --> 00:57:01,779 more mysterious scientific notions on 1487 00:57:05,950 --> 00:57:04,609 which maybe in an earlier era scientists 1488 00:57:07,930 --> 00:57:05,960 are more quickly to kind of sweep under 1489 00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:07,940 the rug so I think it's possible that in 1490 00:57:12,009 --> 00:57:10,130 the coming decades you will see more of 1491 00:57:15,220 --> 00:57:12,019 this you know you will see more kind of 1492 00:57:17,950 --> 00:57:15,230 open reflections about you know physics 1493 00:57:19,089 --> 00:57:17,960 and consciousness studies right or you 1494 00:57:23,799 --> 00:57:19,099 know different kinds of combinations 1495 00:57:24,819 --> 00:57:23,809 that that many scientists before in in 1496 00:57:26,410 --> 00:57:24,829 some ways because they were 1497 00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:26,420 professionalizing and building their 1498 00:57:30,849 --> 00:57:29,359 Sciences we're kind of against but now 1499 00:57:33,269 --> 00:57:30,859 maybe this who knows maybe there's gonna 1500 00:57:36,279 --> 00:57:33,279 be a new openness to this I hope so 1501 00:57:38,529 --> 00:57:36,289 great well it's great work our guests 1502 00:57:39,999 --> 00:57:38,539 again has been dr. Christopher white the 1503 00:57:43,569 --> 00:57:40,009 book that you're gonna want to check out 1504 00:57:46,569 --> 00:57:43,579 other worlds spirituality and the search 1505 00:57:47,980 --> 00:57:46,579 for invisible dimensions now you can 1506 00:57:50,109 --> 00:57:47,990 find the book in the normal ways right 1507 00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:50,119 Chris Amazon yeah you can get it from 1508 00:57:53,859 --> 00:57:52,250 Amazon you can if you like it leave a 1509 00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:53,869 review on Amazon you can get it through 1510 00:57:58,029 --> 00:57:56,000 Harvard University presses website they 1511 00:57:59,650 --> 00:57:58,039 they sell the book as well it's 1512 00:58:01,390 --> 00:57:59,660 published by Harvard University Press 1513 00:58:02,950 --> 00:58:01,400 and if anyone wants to reach out to me 1514 00:58:06,430 --> 00:58:02,960 they can find me at Vassar or they can 1515 00:58:08,859 --> 00:58:06,440 also follow me on Twitter I'm at Chris 1516 00:58:11,799 --> 00:58:08,869 underscore Gees and George underscore 1517 00:58:12,490 --> 00:58:11,809 white so happy to happy to communicate 1518 00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:12,500 with people 1519 00:58:15,970 --> 00:58:14,570 want to reach out great well I'm sure 1520 00:58:19,870 --> 00:58:15,980 there'll be a bunch of people reaching 1521 00:58:22,030 --> 00:58:19,880 out on the forum after this show so yeah 1522 00:58:23,740 --> 00:58:22,040 you have a minute I'll set you up so you 1523 00:58:25,690 --> 00:58:23,750 can pop over there and see what people 1524 00:58:27,700 --> 00:58:25,700 are saying cuz that'd be great sure Oh 1525 00:58:29,710 --> 00:58:27,710 that'd be great for us it's it's right 1526 00:58:32,380 --> 00:58:29,720 up our alley and you've you've just 1527 00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:32,390 amassed some amazing work in this area 1528 00:58:36,580 --> 00:58:34,880 so it's been great having you on I thank 1529 00:58:38,620 --> 00:58:36,590 you again so much for coming on skeptic 1530 00:58:41,980 --> 00:58:38,630 oh thanks so much Alex it was great 1531 00:58:44,500 --> 00:58:41,990 great talking to you for an hour okay 1532 00:58:47,050 --> 00:58:44,510 let's do it again all right let's do it 1533 00:58:49,030 --> 00:58:47,060 again thanks again to dr. Chris white 1534 00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:49,040 for joining me today on skeptic oh I 1535 00:58:52,990 --> 00:58:50,930 guess I'd have one question to tee up 1536 00:58:55,030 --> 00:58:53,000 from this interview and that is what do 1537 00:58:57,910 --> 00:58:55,040 you make of the premise of Chris's book 1538 00:59:01,600 --> 00:58:57,920 is there a subtler deeper interplay 1539 00:59:04,590 --> 00:59:01,610 between science and spirituality and is 1540 00:59:07,300 --> 00:59:04,600 it being revealed to a certain extent in 1541 00:59:09,370 --> 00:59:07,310 technology advancement I think that's a 1542 00:59:11,290 --> 00:59:09,380 really interesting topic to explore and 1543 00:59:13,060 --> 00:59:11,300 I'm really interested to see what you 1544 00:59:14,500 --> 00:59:13,070 have to say about it because there's so 1545 00:59:17,590 --> 00:59:14,510 many different directions we could take 1546 00:59:20,290 --> 00:59:17,600 and I'm not even sure where I stand on 1547 00:59:23,230 --> 00:59:20,300 it so that's why to these shows by the 1548 00:59:27,070 --> 00:59:23,240 way is I need y'all to straighten me out 1549 00:59:29,050 --> 00:59:27,080 which you do so often and clarify my 1550 00:59:32,740 --> 00:59:29,060 thinking on these things I can't tell 1551 00:59:36,130 --> 00:59:32,750 you enough how often that occurs I learn 1552 00:59:39,850 --> 00:59:36,140 from you that's what a show is all about 1553 00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:39,860 that's the payoff for me so join me over 1554 00:59:45,010 --> 00:59:42,170 on The Skeptical forum or other places 1555 00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:45,020 and tell me your thoughts have a couple 1556 00:59:49,420 --> 00:59:46,880 of really cool shows coming up please 1557 00:59:52,470 --> 00:59:49,430 stay with me for all of that and until 1558 00:59:58,960 --> 00:59:52,480 next time bye for now 1559 00:59:58,970 --> 01:00:11,279 [Music] 1560 01:00:15,939 --> 01:00:14,019 so thanks for watching this video if it 1561 01:00:18,519 --> 01:00:15,949 wasn't really a video but just an audio 1562 01:00:20,109 --> 01:00:18,529 stored as a video well I apologize but 1563 01:00:22,029 --> 01:00:20,119 there's more videos out there as well 1564 01:00:23,859 --> 01:00:22,039 but please check out the skeptic Oh 1565 01:00:25,209 --> 01:00:23,869 website you can see it here we cover a 1566 01:00:28,059 --> 01:00:25,219 lot of different stuff you might be 1567 01:00:31,390 --> 01:00:28,069 interested in relating to controversial 1568 01:00:34,089 --> 01:00:31,400 science and spirituality a lot of shows 1569 01:00:36,939 --> 01:00:34,099 up there over 350 of them are so all 1570 01:00:39,250 --> 01:00:36,949 free all available for downloads so do